Some may not consider this to be patriotic song.
Not your usual rah rah song.
Complex lyrics of introspection by only person capable of writing it.
Probably need Madhavi to translate for us.

Apne Ander Zara Jhank Mere Watan - Mohammed Rafi - Naya Raasta (1970) - N. Dutta - Sahir


apne ander zara jhank mere watan (2)
apne aebon ko mat dhank mere watan (2)

tera ithaas hai khoon mein nikhra huwa
tu abhi tak hai duniya mein pichhda huwa
tune apno ko apna na maana kabhi
tune insaan ko insaan na jaana kabhi
tere dharmon ne jaton ki taqseem ki
teri rasmon ne nafrat ki taleem di
behshakon ka chalan tujhe mein jari raha
katal khoon ka janoon tujhe pe tari raha

apne ander zara jhank mere watan
apne aebon ko mat dhank mere watan

rang aur nasal ke dayiron se nikal
gir chuka hai bahut der ab jo samajh
tu darawar hai ya ariya nasl hai
jo bhi hai ab isi khat ki bast hai
tere dil se jo nafrat na mit paiygi
tere ghar mein ghulami palat aayegi
teri barbadiyon ka tujhe vasta
dhund apne liye ab naya raasta

apne ander zara jhank mere watan
apne aebon ko mat dhank mere watan

Rajnish, I have not heard of this song. My ignorance! Please can you upload it? Would love to hear these fiery lyrics in Rafi's voice. While looking for this song in my Nayaa Raasta folder, I heard the "Maine Pee Sharaab" after a long time. What a song that one is, too and Rafi brings it alive...

"Tum kaho to sach hum kahen to jhooth
Tum ko sab muaf, zulm ho ya loot
tum ne kitne dil chaakh kar diye
Maine to kiya khud ko hi kharaab
Maine pee sharaab tumne kya piya
Tumne kya piya...aadmi ka khoon...

ang aur nasal ke dayiron se nikal
gir chuka hai bahut der ab jo samajh
tu darawar hai ya ariya nasl hai
jo bhi hai ab isi khat ki bast hai

Very interesting lines. Strange, today I was trying to look up the controversies in Ancient Indian historiography ( the Aryan "Invasion" issue specifically). I would also like your input in that if you have any suggested readings or opinions.

The song is the title song. I have the DVD version. I will upload as soon as I can.

Aryan Invasion is a complex subject. I would recommend http://www.atributetohinduism.com/
cool thing about this website is that you actually get to see quotes
from actual authors of indian history and their motivations.
obviously a 150 years old theory which relies on german and english archeologist
and does not allow any new discoveries to contradict it has a problem.

Aryan is a sanskrit word used to describe Indian and Iranian cultures. That is
what Upanishad and Vedas mentions. Even talks about Zoroastrian practices.
Sanskrit grammar was written by a brahmin named Panini.
Problem is that no one has able to decipher Indus civilization scripts
this allows the proponents of Aryan theory in the West and in India to
cling to it. As well as South Indians want to cling to their distinctness so
that s also a hindrance. recently the anti aryan theory people have produced
fake artifacts which somewhat undermines it. but since genetic analysis basically
shuts the whole discussion in my mind. The main thing about the aryan theory
is that hindu culture is older than jewish/christian timeline that is why west will
never accept it. I also think that Mehrgarh is not taken into the theory which
also is a new discovery that most history books don't talk about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehrgarh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mittanni
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic_civilization
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kushan

I have more stuff I can say, I will leave it to you
carry the discussion forward.

Rajnish,

As usual you have given me very useful leads and given me the main points of the discussion. The Mehrgarh link is indeed useful in understanding the early phase of the Indus Valley Civ. and the early dating that is still a contested issue. What a pity that this had to become so politicized and had to be hijacked by the right and resisted so strongly by the left. I got interested reading Suhas' and Gopi's posts in the Mahabharath thread. Will continue the discussion there. Thanks for the very valuable tips.

Here is the song enjoy.
Apne Ander Zara Jhank Mere Watan - Mohammed Rafi - Naya Raasta (1970) - N. Dutta - Sahir - 2:37 - 192 kbps




Madhavi,


It is not question of politics.
It is question of status quo.

Indian history is the only history
written by foreigners.
Corporations control the world.
They tell you what to learn and what
not to learn.
Indian elites are not go to rock
the boat.

India was supper power because happy
accident of great agricultural land
and have two cash crop (Sugar and Cotton)
that rest of the world was willing to
pay top dollar. So it was not superior
culture or anything of sort that propelled
Indian culture. So unless India can have
another monopoly which dethrones oil which
they can sell to the rest of the world
talking about next great power is just empty
rhetoric.

There is no such thing the Indo-European
languages. It is just that thru trade
our language was able to influence other
languages.

Well, I have to say that the historians whose lectures I thrived on as a student and have tremendous respect for : Thapar/Sumit Sarkar/Irfan Habib, don't seem be to be completely convinced of a complete "No Aryan Invasion" theory. I need to read more before I make up my mind, and I do understand that it is difficult to shake the status quo but these people have promoted many controversial theories before. Maybe the truth lies somewhere in between, Thapar talks of a mingling and she has specified many times that "Aryan" is not really a race category. I need to definitely read up more on this controversy. But I do think the left is particularly upset about the Right wing's jingoistic taking over of this controversy, and hence are digging in their heels in.




Yes I did read that about this but again this is one of the theories floating around and it does make sense. However, nothing has been proven conclusively. The genetic test though seems to be more conclusive, as you said. I wonder what the counter-argument to that is.

Thank you for the song. Rafi's rendition sends a chill down the spine. It is important to remember our flaws if we want to move ahead. Something that our jingoistic friends forget, when they denounce any criticism as anti-patriotic. If we don't recognize any problems within ourselves, we will never progress.


A couple of corrections:


apne aebon ko mat dhank mere watan (2)


tu abhi tak hai duniya mein pichda huwa

genetically we are all one race however Evolution has
set some rules which dictate the normal behavior.
So things like racism, casteism is prescribed by Evolution
because of million of years of living in small groups.
Neither Laws nor White Man’s burden can change the above fact.

Truth is not some where in the middle. life is simple illusion.
it is the main tenant of Hinduism but Humans are bound by evolution
to look for patterns and explanation where there are none.
modern life is based on Oil, once that disappears
you will see that life’s most precious truth will disappear as well.

Most of history is decided thru academic papers and conferences.
Indian historian will not simply be able to change because
they have to go thru academic process which involves going
thru ideologist sitting in US and European universities.

There has been two migrations of Africa which populated
most of the world. There has been migrations due to hunting
and due to farming. genetically White people descend from mongols
from the step that migrated to Europe. but due to farming most of
that population was supplanted by middle eastern farmers. You won’t
find White people putting that in there history. I don’t see why Indians
need to do the same. Early cities like Mehrgarh declined due to over farming
and climate change so those people extended from Mediterranean all the way to the ganges plain.

Even genetic analysis has limits. It is looking at genetic mutations
as pattern to identify individuals and groups. If you go back 20 generations
then you will see that 1 million individuals contributed to your genetic makeup. no way can science tell you who these people were.

As far as Indo-European languages are concerned, the whole bases for them is that they share root word so conclusion is drawn that there has to be proto language and since most of the near east archeological sites contain Aryan artifact, these people tried to tie it to White people. Chinese has 30000 sanskrit words in their language, do you see them calling it indo-chinese language.

Modern Science is based on playing with statistics and coming to consensus on it. Only few things in science can be proven conclusively
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._O._Wilson. Dr. Wilson came out with a theory that most scientist have yet
accepted because it puts human out of the special category as being separate from nature. His theory
basically supplants all social sciences work for 200 years. You will not see it being taught in any class.

Here is an article that might be of some interest to you.

Akhenaten, Surya and the Rgveda
http://www.ece.lsu.edu/kak/akhena.pdf

Rajnish.

I remember you mentioning Wilson in some other thread too. I had read a bit on him, he is considered brilliant and controversial. His "social Darwinism", debunks any notion of free will. Despite his great efforts at conservation etc, he is accused of racism, I mean his theories can lend themselves to a defense of racism. Sigh... too much to read, more later...

That is just another way to end debate and protect status quo. It was
one the most famous evolutionist who tried that ploy. Anything can be
twisted. Even Darwin famous saying "Survival of the fittest" was used an
excuse for Eugenics movement and domination of brown people. But if
you want correct explanation of the way things are then you have to
understand Evolution's effect on social behavior. It explains every social
behavior in concise a manner that is ever possible.


Dr. George Lakoff has done brain research. He gave the following to an audience.

So you are stuck on free will.

A women taking antidepressant pills cannot fall in
love because the drug block oxytocin (the love hormone).

A women on birth control pill will not be attracted
to the man she just married because as soon as she
stops take birth control pill. her hormones readjust
and are attracted to different pheromones.

Countless other examples can be sited.

nope no free will there.

Choice is an illusion.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1214506090....html?mod=blogs
“The brain, they have found, appears to make up its mind 10 seconds before we become conscious of a decision”

"But these data show that consciousness is just the tip of the iceberg. This doesn't rule out free will, but it does make it implausible."

Rajnish,

I am interested in the dynamics between free-will and determinism. The very fact that I see it as a dynamic means that I am willing to consider the possibility of free-will. Not really in the enlightenment-humanistic sense but I am also trying to look at various disciplines to see if that makes any sense.

Let me read up a little more, and get back on your comments and suggestions, but I am still not ready to completely give up on "free-will." but I do agree that the individualistic/humanistic definition of free-will can easily be debunked by science, but a deeper look into scientific theories(cosmology/quantum-physics/neuro-science) (let me be very clear, I am an absolute novice and have just skimmed the surface of fascinating theories which need much more serious research than on-the-run readings and you-tube vids). However these fields seem to suggest such "fantastic" possibilities that seem to defy logic as we know it.