Jus wanted to disscuss abt the indian team. As a team INDIA is getting together well. The batting looks rock solid as it has always been. There are good Specialist bowlers like Harbhajan and Pathan. We always have the Tendulkars, Yuvrajs, Sehwags chipping in to complete the fifty overs. The one Department i feel INDIA lacks is pace attack upfront. We need some genuine pace and an experienced partner to start the bowling upfront, cuz the wickets in WI are gonna be pace-friendly. Last time we had Srinath for experience, but WHO now?

Names like Agarkar pops up but he is not known for consistency which is a bit of worry.

Any views on it????

Historically WI did have quick wickets but of late their wickets are more like the ones in subcontinent. The best pace bowler we have is Pathan, infact he is our best all rounder. Zaheer khan is not my bowler, he is too erratic and has stopped learning.

Agarkar has shaped up well of late and is focusing on accuracy which I think is a good idea, simply bowling fast is not the criteria. The best example is Mcgrath, he is not the quickest but easily the greatest bowler of all times. The current Indian team is good enough to beat anyone. They need to improve on their fielding and I cant stress this more. If our fielding is right, I see no reason why we cant win the world cup. Pathan, Agarkar are my choice. If there is a room for another pace bowler, my choice would be Nehra.

We have a solid talented one day team and we need to work on them rather than get involved in any experimentation.

My team at this point would be

1. Sachin
2. Sewag
3. Laxman
4. Dravid
5. Yuvraj
6. Dhoni
7. Pathan
8. Agarakar
9. Kartik
10.Harbajan
11. Kaif
12. Venugopal
13. Nehra

We still have room for at least 2 more all rounders. Any one with suggestions?

I think the WC is still far away and when the time comes near by (i.e upcoming ODI matches have been played) then the discussions should start.

India still have an away series against Pakistan, a home series against England, and ODI series in Sept against SA and SL, the ICC Champions trophy which they host, two series away against Bangladesh and SA, and a series away against NZ. In all of the above there are many ODI's to be played which gives them time to find the right combination for the WC.

Most important, in between all those series they have an away series against the WI in May-June consisting of 5 ODI's which will let them see which players besides the established ones are capable of playing on WI pitches.

Anything can happen in this time, some other/new players may come into the team and some may not, Chappell and Co. will try and find the best possible combination and things can change.

David Lloyd was commentating in the recent Pak-Eng ODI that Pak have a solid ODI team but there is still so much cricket to be played in the coming year that Pak can even build a stronger team than the one now or find a different combination, so the same goes for India.

Lots of time folks !

Prince ji, we do realise that many matches have to be played be4 the WC, however its never too early to discuss it. Please forward your views.
I would encourage others to contribute in this thread on a regular bais.

T

My vote for 2 all rounder goes for JP Yadav and Ramesh Powar (Mumbai)

First of all thanks Track ji for showing some support. I started this topic in the main motive sustaining a prolonging discussion. As u have said it is not too early right now as the WC 07 is only jus more than an year away. I feel it is jus enough time to follow a team built for the world cup and discuss our views on the teal changes.

I even hope others post their views to this topic to make it more of an interesting debate.

Vishwa

Well, I can't agree more on the fact that we need to devise our strategies from here on in with an eye on the World Cup. Of course, the pace attack is important but I agree with Track ji that the wickets in Windies are no longer fast and bouncy and thus the spinners also come in the focus. Plus, the fact that the WC is the biggest ODI tournament would ensure that we will see absolutely flat pitches in the Caribbean come 2007. So, in this light it is imperative that we start getting to a combination of 15-16 players who would be selected for the WC squad. Also, it is high time that some of the experimentation is done away with and a stable look is given to the team where players know their batting positions and are better prepared towards their roles in the side.
Otherwise, we know what is happening with England's ODI side, they have some talented players but their is no stability to the batting order and therefore they struggle in the Shorter version. So, India would not like to get into the WC without knowing their best ODI XI as that could be trouble!

From this side, I would bet on the following players being in the WC squad:
1. R.Dravid ©
2.S.Tendulkar
3. M.Dhoni
4. I.Pathan
5. H.Singh
6. Y.Singh
7. V.Sehwag (?)
8. M.Kaif
9. S.Raina
10. A.Agarkar
11. A.Kumble (has to be in for his experience)
12. Z.Khan
13. R.P. Singh

The rest are open for debate.

If the discussion is for a lead-up to the WC then I do agree although the only way we can see where changes need to be made is through the future matches that they will be playing, especially in the WI where the team management can see what players will do well in those conditions.

India still need a solid all-rounder in their ODI squad, which will really help them. Pathan and Agarkar, both bowlers who can bat is not the answer for that role, they need someone else.

Pathan has lost quite a bit of pace since his last tour to India, and batsman have found out a way to play him after the new ball, he needs a strong series against Pak.

Good to see Zaheer back in the side for the Pak tour, if he gets back his confidence he can be effective.

Prince ji, I think it is perhaps too late to look for a genuine all-rounder at this stage. I do feel that Pathan is more than just a bowling all-rounder, I think he is very capable with the bat and we should also not forget that Dhoni can also be counted as an all-rounder. As far as Agarkar is concerned, well he is highly mercurial and it is really in the best interests of everyone if he is not looked upon as an all-rounder. He is a good ODI bowler and that is what I think he should concentrate on.

I agree that Pathan has lost his pace somewhat but I think that has got a lot to do with his fitness over the past season. However, in the recent tournaments he has shown signs of getting his pace slightly up and that is positive news. Zaheer on the other hand has got to take care of his fitness as he can be effective, as you said, when he is fit and in rhythm.

No. An all-rounder generally is one who can bat and bowl very well. Dhoni is a wicketkeeper and therefore does not bowl.

Great thread and discussion, guys.

Legend ji, Pathan has just started to show he can make useful runs down the order and if promoted he can also smash the ball around the park, I still think India to be safe should look for a player who is a middle order batsman as well as a useful bowler.

There is still time left, many series are to be played before the WC next year, if at all India wants to find their right combination, now is the time to bring in players if needed.

Bhirgu ji, of course, Dhoni cannot bowl but he is performing two roles in the side and in today's ODI cricket that amounts to an all-rounder. Ok, he is not a bat/bowler all-rounder but then one can argue that an all-rounder should ideally keep wickets as well as the term all-rounder would literally mean a player who can do everything. However, you know and I know that such a thing is not practically possible and therefore a player with two outstanding skills (in this case Dhoni's batting and keeping) should be considered as an all-rounder. Then again all these things are open to debate.

Maybe an appropriate term in this case would be a wicket-keeping batsman.

I mean not all keepers can be considered good batsman, for example look at Parthiv Patel.

Dhoni has enough talent to be considered not only as a wicketkeeper but also as one of their batsman, same with Kamran Akmal of Pakistan. Usually you have your top batsman and then your all-rounders who can score runs, and if the keeper is a bit handy they are only considered as players who "can bat", and will not get into the side for both their keeping/batting, but only their keeping.

Dhoni and Akmal make the team for both, so it can be considered as all-round abilities, but maybe not termed as that.

What do you guys think ?

Well as Prince ji said, the right term is wicket-keeping batsman. Naturally a keeper is expected to bat atleast to some extent. A wicket-keeper cannot be in the team jus for keeping alone. He is not considered for bowling at all, which right away rules out the possiblity of him being called allrounder.

If this is the case i have a question? Are allrounders always guys who bowl medium pace or fast-medium? Why cant slow bowlers be called allrounders?

As we have seen in ODIs always Yuvraj and Sehwag have been taking useful wickets on a regular basis. I do think they can be termed as allrounders too. So in that case some of these guys who can roll their arm over can be made to put some extra effort in preparation for a match or series, like what Afridi is doin right now, which wud be useful i think.

In that case we can either add more batsmen or bowlers in the team which might be handy.

You guys views on this??????

Vishwa

Vishwa ji,

Even spinners can be termed all-rounders, perfect example as you mentioned is Afridi he is a spinning all-rounder. Although Yuvraj and Sehwag can bowl, I think they are part-time bowlers and not specialist bowlers to be considered as all-rounders, although they have all-round abilities.

The difference between an all-rounder and a part-time bowler is that an all-rounder specializes in both batting and bowling whereas a part-time bowler is not a specialist bowler but can bowl when needed.

Afridi is one of Pakistan's main spinners in ODI's now. Even in Tests, along side Kaneria he is their second main spinner. In fact he came up as a leg spinner only to score the fastest hundred and transform himself into a batsman and during this time he didn't pay alot of attention to his bowling that much. Now he seems to be concentrating on both his bowling and batting. He is in the Pak team as an all-rounder.

Yes more batsman or bowlers would be handy, then you would have more players to choose from, if someone is out of form or not performing up to expectations then you can bring in another player.

Also, we have to keep in mind that if the Super Sub is used in the WC then it would be handy to have an all-rounder and not worry if you win or lose the toss because that player can perfrom both roles.

The ICC should change the rule so that you choose your Super Sub after the toss.

The issue is not of all rounders but good cricketers. This Indian team is beautifully balanced for one dayers. Even Harbajan is no muck with the bat and Agarkar and Pathan have shown that they too are very much in business. indain team need to look for motivated players who not only have skills but are willing to raise their hands when it is needed.

Most wicket keepers in the past have being good batsmen. Alan Knot, Rpd Taylor, Kirmani, Ian Healey, Wasim bari, Ian Smith, Moin Khan and now Dhni and Kamal all are pretty good with that bat.

Fielding, fielding and fielding....if the Indian team can further improve in this aspect of the game then they can be world beaters like Australia.

Fielding and fitness are related and players from the subcontinent have always fallen short in this aspect but hopefully in the presence of Greg Chappel all this will change.

Talking of fielding, we shud not deny the fact that Indian fielding standard is improved quite a lot. Two outstanding fielders are Yuvraj and Kaif. Others like Sachin, Sehwag, Harbhajan, Dravid, Pathan, Agarkar, Karthik, etc arent bad fielders. Infact i don remember Sachin, in particular, misfielding or dropping a catch. India does have some slow movers like (Lax)man and Ganguly. Infact i feel his attitude and fielding capability was one of the deciding factors in his exclusion.

As every circketer know how to ball and how to bat but, this doesn't means he is a perfact allrounder..
His/her performance should like allrounder like ...Mr. kapil dev,Mr. Manoj Prabhakar....etc

It will be interesting to see how "our" (HF members') team-selection modifies during the course of this thread. Even as it is, between December and April, there are changes.

Based upon promise and recent performances, only 10 names automatically come to mind:

Dravid
Uthappa
Raina
Yuvraj
Pathan
Dhoni
Powar
Harbhajan
Sreesanth
Munaf Patel

Add Sehwag and Kaif and Agarkar, for old times' sake!

Dunno anything about Venugopal Rao and R. P. Singh, but if their names are added, it is exactly the squad selected for the ODI's against West Indies!

That Laxman is not in the ODI team to West Indies is a sure indicator that he is not in consideration of the 2007 World Cup. I watched him scoring a very responsible ODI century, playing all his shots along the ground before reaching 100, and winning the match for India. At the time of a Hindustan Times report last year, he had the best ODI average among the Indian batsmen! Yet he does not find a place, at the age of 31. Similarly, Kumble is not in the reckoning for ODIs.

Even the automatic selection, Sachin Tendulkar remains a question mark, depending upon his performance after returning from injury.

If Uthappa lives up to his promise, at least one opener slot will be filled, and hopefully Sehwag will return to form. Reportedly, Dravid said he knew little about Uthappa --- a player from his own state! Just goes to show how much international cricket is being played, how much the players are away from home, and how they've lost touch with domestic cricket.

On the subject of all-rounders:

I guess, the simplistic definition would be "a player who can bat as well as bowl". But then, Mansur Ali Khan Pataudi "could" also bowl, and infact once captured the wicket of Colin Cowdrey, the great England batsman! But that did not qualify him as an "all-rounder"! Every batsman bowls in the nets --- one exception was Vengsarkar.

It would be a harsh requirement that a player should be worthy of being selected either as a batsman or as a bowler in order to be termed an all-rounder. Very few cricketers in history would measure up to such a yardstick. Garfield Sobers did. (If I'm not mistaken, he was originally selected as a bowler --- at the time he scored the record 365!). According to cricket archives, Keith Miller of Australia was another. Perhaps Vinoo Mankad.

In more recent times, Ian Botham, Imran Khan and Kapil Dev were considered great all-rounders, but the team's reliance on them for their bowling perhaps did not let them realize their batting talent to the fullest extent.

In the present Indian team, Irfan Pathan seems to be the closest to being an all-rounder, with Ramesh Powar reputed to have the potential. Some of the batsmen are just part-time bowlers, and not authentic all-rounders in the category of a Mohinder Amarnath or a Madanlal. There was a time when the Indian team was packed with all-rounders, Umrigar, Borde, Durrani, Nadkarni.

Interestingly, a Roger Binny or an Abid Ali or a Robin Singh would not qualify for the team solely on the strength of their batting or their bowling. Yet, their value was heightened by the fact that they could both bat and bowl. And such all-rounders with modest reputations have made stellar contributions either with the bat or ball.

The posts about wicket-keeper/allrounder reminds me of the days when the Indian team had no opening bowlers and went in with only a spin attack. Let alone part-time bowlers, non-bowlers would be "conscripted" to get the shine off the ball. On one occasion, Skipper Pataudi threw the ball to Buddhi Kunderan to bowl the opening spell. Although he was a wicket-keeper, Kunderan was in that team purely as a batsman, while Farouk Engineer kept wicket. Subsequently, Pataudi gleefully confessed that at that time he had no idea what Kunderan bowled!

It has just been reported that Dhoni bowls in the nets, that if someone else could keep wickets for the 20 middle overs, Dhoni could be asked to bowl in ODIs! The coach went on to say that he considered Dhoni an all-rounder!