Hi:

I know that the 1957 Bhabhi songs "Chal Ud Ja Re Panchhi" originally recorded in Talat's voice was rerecorded in Rafi's voice. Also the film version of 1968 Aadmi song "Kaisi Haseen Aaj" saw his voice being ultimately replaced by that of Mahendra Kapoor at the insistence of Manoj Kumar.

At a recent interview [SEE: http://www.screenindia.com/fullstory.php?content_id=11571 --"MUSIC DIRECTOR - That Royal Touch"] Naushad reveals that in the film version of the 1967 Palki song "Kal Raat Zindagi Se" a rerecording of Talat's song had to be done again at the insistence of Rajendra Kumar. Does anyone have this Talat version and will be kind enough to u/l it? Otherwise we may need to request Talat's son, Khalid Mahmood.

Also does anyone know of more of such replaced versions that did not see the light of the day?

Thanks.

Binod.

I am sure this was also the case of "Tujhey Kya Sunawon Aye Dilruba'' (Aakhri Dao)

Thanks for the info Akhtar Bhai. I have not read anywhere about this. Could you please point to me the source, if possible? Come to think of it, I can imagine that the tune and style of singing of this song would be very suitable for Talat too. I believe it would fit him like a pair of gloves. This is not to say that Rafi did not sing it up to our expectations. Does anyone in this Forum have this version too?

Binod.

No wonder, the tune is a lift-off from Sajjad Hussein's "Yeh Hawa Yeh Raat Yeh Chandni" Sangdil sung by Talat.

Thanks for the info. I knew that Sajjad Hussein had once accused Madan Mohan of stealing his tune in front of a large gathering of artists but I did not have info about the details. Here are the details gleaned from the RMIM archives of an article about Sajjad Hussain [THE UNSUNG GENIUS] written by Radha Rajadhyaksha.

http://www.geocities.com/~sm0e/R-sajjad.txt .

However, here we seem to be veering off the topic which is not about MM & SH but is about Talat and his substitutes including Rafi & MK. Did Mukesh, Manna De,& Hemant also make any inroads into Talat musical fiefdom? [I suppose Kishore was so different that I purposely did not consider him as a Talat substitute or am I dead wrong here?]

Response eagerly awaited. Thanks.

Binod.

Dear Binod,

I do not quite know how you mean "inroads into Talat musical fiefdom". Do you mean Talat-style of songs or sonsgs that Talat had to sing but finally other singers replaced him.

If the former, there are plenty of strong reasons. If you see Talat's career graph, he hit like a meteor in Bombay in 1949 and by 1951, he was strongly established. He was the undisputed king of playback singing (on the male side) till 1955 when the top composers of the time like Anil Biswas, CR, Husnlal Bhagatram, Hansraj Behl etc used him extensively. Then, there is a sudden void because he made overseas trips giving concerts in the US, East Africa, Caribean etc in the 1956-57 phase. He was still no 1 but the gap between him and the others was much reduced. It was when Mukesh staged a strong comeback in 1958 with "Madhumati" that Talat's fortunes finally went decidedly downhill. It is also undeniable that his own vocals were no longer of the same calibre as yore. The popular music form was also much changed. Also most of his favorite composers had faded away by the late 50s. Only Salil Chowdhury used him well in the next few years.

His non film records continued to sell briskly though right through till the 70s.

It is also worth remembering that during Talat's peak years, there are many songs that were supposed to be sung by other singers that Talat finally rendered. For example, the songs of "Doraha" were initially to be recorded with Rafi but Anilda not comfortable with Rafi's renditions switched to Talat. So maybe in the end, things just tend to even themselves out !!

Regards,
Shriram

Dear Shriram:

My expression "inroads into Talat's musical fiefdom" is to be taken to mean loosely both things, i.e. not mutually exclusive. We could have other singers replace him in his style of songs. I just wanted to know which were the songs and who were the new substitutes. I thank you for your indepth analyses and explanations of why and when this happened. Pretty much illuminating.

I am sure this happens to other number one stars too. Just as it happened to Rafi as he slowly got edged out by Kishore. There were also instances when Rafi held his own for example when Madan Mohan insisted that Rafi be used for Lalila Majnu or he would opt out if Kishore were used. In this duo case either a song was given to both such as in Pyar Ka Mausam and the proliferation of duets in the later stages or that there was only one singer recorded in the movie with no other version recordings available elsewhere. So there is no way to know how Kishore would have sounded in Laila Majnu and how would Rafi have sounded in flicks where Kishore sang in Rafi-style songs.

But in the case of Talat we have some version songs sung by him that do not appear in the films. So these recordings would enable us to give independent opinions/analyses and/or judge whether the public/MD's final choice/decision was really justifiable from artistic considerations or whether they were swayed by purely commercial and/or political considerations? Or were the choices not so obvious but were only indifferent, each providing a different flavor only irrespective of any being superior to the other.

My theory is that since Talat was already recorded , it proves that an artistic/professional decision to use him by the MD was vetoed by a non-music person such as the film star and/or the producers purely on the basis political expediency or commercial considerations. The decision to use Rafi in Lalila Majnu is just the opposite of the above decision character because Kishore's name had yet to be finalized. Then there is a third type of decision in which the MD thought of using an artist and later changed his mind. In this case the choice was not so obvious and the MD vacillitated as he had to consider both politics and art. An example of this would be Anil Biswas's "Do Raha". However, I feel that Biswas is one MD who consistently avoided Rafi. I have never heard him praise him. He not only prefered Talat to Rafi , any artist including Hemant, Kishore, Mukesh, and Manna De would be easily chosen over Rafi unless someone intervened.

But this is only theory. Access to some of the version songs would provide further clues to the validity of this theory. I solicit your opinions, theories, and analyses.

Thanks.

Binod.

To add to Binod's mention of instances where the singer was "replaced":

Reportedly, the producer/s of "JAHAN ARA" wanted Rafi-sahab as the male singer, but it was Madan Mohan who insisted on using Talat-sahab --- and created for him a memorable string of tunes, virtually Talat-sahab's glorious swan-song!

To me it isn't quite clear what actually transpired in the instance of "ARADHANA". It was reported that when SDB was in charge of the music, two songs had already been recorded in the voice of Rafi-sahab. Subsequently, RDB took over when his father fell ill, and for the rest of the songs he used Kishore-da. But the two songs recorded in Rafi's voice were for the role of the son played by Rajesh Khanna, whereas the Kishore numbers were for Rajesh Khanna as the father character! So it is not clear to me whether SDB had intended for Rafi-sahab to sing for both characters.

Had Kishore Kumar sung the songs of "LAILA MAJNU", or Mohd. Rafi the other songs of "ARADHANA", I guess the tunes would have been re-cast in the respective singer's idiom and not the way we hear them. Music directors have been known to say that a tune is created with the singer in mind. I guess, one notable exception would perhaps be "Yeh Hawa Yeh Raat" and "Tujhe Kya Sunaoon", both could have been rendered by either Talat or Rafi!

The then prevailing popularity of a singer is the criterion considered by 'non-musical' entities who have a stake in the film, judging the saleability of the film in terms of the music, e.g. in the case of "BHABHI". The actor's popular image and identity with the voice, in the instance of "PALKI" (Rajendra Kumar/Mohd. Rafi) and "AADMI" (Manoj Kumar/Mahendra Kapoor). Criteria that influenced decisions in the post-ARADHANA phase, too.

Interesting comments Unni. I did not know about JAHAN ARA.

Another twist to this story would be the role of, if any, discriminating and non discriminating actors. For example, I find Sunil Dutta has used almost alll male singers for his playback -- he does not seem to be so much obsessed by any stereotypical image. Or is he only being eclectical in his choice of singers -- not sticking to anyone but switching singers as the situation demanded. Or is it only the highly sought after actors such as Rajesh Khanna, Rajendra Kumar, Amitabh who made the choices? Again what made Amitabh bray in his own voice when Kishore was readily available? Was he set out to prove that his popularity had crested beyond the quality of songs in his movies?

Sorry, again for going off the topic. Folks, lets have more analyses and more Talat. Let us provide more examples of Talat replacing others and the stories that went with them. Let us also know whether Hemant (whose voice and singing had Godly traits according to Salil Chowdhury) ever replaced Talat or was replaced by him. In his case Salil must have been in a predicament since he was so much enchanted by Hemant but he was still using Talat when others had already switched ships. Which MDs besides Anil Biswas were diehard Talat promoters? Was there a special trait common in them as a group? There is some food for thought here. I would invite your erudite views here.

Thanks.

Binod.

Interesting discussion. It may be true sometimes that MD's have certain singers in mind before composing a tune but that is/was generally not the case in the past.

I once asked Nausad Sahab why there were no Rafi songs in Saathi and he said that he belived the tunes were quite suited for Mukesh besides Rafi was very busy in other assignments. So did he make the compositions with Rafi in mind. He said Rafi had such a unique voice and quality that it was compatable with just about any composition. Rafi was very busy and it wasn't humanly possible for him to sing more than what he was doing. So would he have asked Rafi to sing songs of Saathi if he was available, the answer was yes.He further said Rafi had the passion of a workaholic. A perfectionist to the core, he would rehearse his songs a number of times till he achieved the desired level of perfection. This accounted for the quality of his songs that have become immortal.

He also said that whenever he could not decide which singer to approach for a song, he always fell back on Rafi and other MD's to followed the same thumb rule.

Rafi was distinct from all other singers due to the unique combination of his god gifted voice and amazing skills. Most singers were stereotyped for certain style of songs but Rafi's vocal repertoire was beyond any restrictions and this was the primary reason he is not linked to a certain class or type of songs, IMO there is no 'Rafi style' of songs. This is clearly evident in the 4 decades that he sang when the style of music had changed several times and Rafi consistently delivered till the end and his vocal elegance easily gelled with the changing trends of music.

The composers for the day were indeed thankful for a singer like Rafi. He could deliver whatever they asked for. Whether it was SD Burman’s, Yeh duniyan agar mil bhee jaye to kya hai in Pyasa or Dekhi zamane ki yaari bichde sabhi bari bari from Kagaz Ke Phool, where Rafi sang about love and loss. In Roshan’s Carvan guzar gaya ghubar dekhte rahey from Nai Umar ki Nai Fasal, Rafi brought out a lingering sense of loss and longing. Under the baton of N. Dutta, he conveyed the agony of a man whose dreams had been shattered in Main ne chaand aur sitaron ki tamanna ki thi from Chanderkanta. Nain lad jayi hein to manva maan kasak hoi be kari from the film Ganga Jamuna is still remembered for its exuberance.

Talat's style suited songs in 40's and 50's but with changing trends and with MD's looking for more versatility it meant Talat's golden period was limited to that time. The same could be said of Hemant Kumar.

There are many instances MD's have changed singers and mostly it has being due to demand of the producers or the actors. As far as Laila Majnu was concerned, Madan ji knew that through his music he had to communicate the passion, the pain of Laila and Majnu and that would require songs to be sung at a high range, lots of emotion and would require tremendous variety of vocal skills as there were romatic songs, emotionally charged songs, qawalis and a cry of a broken heart in Yeh Diwane Ki Zid hein, a song that had to be sung at different vocal range and pitches . Thus to meet all these various requirements he opted Rafi.

Manoj Kumar decided to ask for MK to sing Kitni Hassen Raat as he thought Rafi's voice gave an added advantge and strength to the character of Dilip Kumar and although the lines for Manoj were more strong, that was not spelling out on the screen in Talat's voice. IMO Manoj Kumar had a case. With all due respects,Talat's vocals do not gel with that composition and this becomes more apparent after you hear Rafi sing the song.Talat who himself has admitted that he could never comprehend how Rafi could sung with such a high degree of versatility. Rafi was however unhappy when it was told to him about Talat being repaced by MK.

Any skillfull singer can sing any song, however MD's in the past specially never viewed it from this perspective. The issue was not to get a song sung but to get the song sung that has the maximum possible impact not only on the song but also on the story of the movie.Hence we had Rafi singing Man Mora Bawra and Ajab hai Dastan for Kishore. Besides Kishore Kumar, Rafi sang for Talat Mahmood in Lala Rukh number Hai kali kali ke lab par teray husan ka fasana. Neither Talat nor Kishore objected to Rafi's voice being used for them— such was the virtuosity of Rafi. This speaks volumes for their on-mike camaraderie.

One of the most important reasons for the falling levels of music and singing is that MD's today simply are looking for a singer to sing a song, they do not care about the impact the song needs to generate and hence these songs come and go unlike several songs of the past that we can never forget and they continue to remain fresh even after so many years.

For listeners like us, it is difficult to analyase a song in terms of its impact, only professional musicians and singers can gauge that aspect. Hence the world of singing is very different for the common listener than most professional MD's and other knownedgeable people who understand the dynamics of music & singing. Our comments and views are motivated by our prefernces not theirs (in most cases).

Thanks
T

In my opinion Talat's version sounded much much better than Mahendra Kapoor's. It is my personal choice and not binding on others, but Talat was a lot better than Mahendra Kapoor (although I guess the best was indeed Rafi).

By the way, does anyone have the Talat version of this song from Aadmi? If you have can you kindly upload it here please?

This is the Part - 2 of the song - A slightly different version sung by Talat Mehmood again.

Coutesy: HF

Based on what I have come across, I think for Aradhna SDB had made it clear that Rafi would sing all the songs. In this case you had the most popular male voice of Rafi saab who sang for everyone, on a struggling not yet famous Rajesh Khanna which made sense at the time. When SDB fell ill, the team of Shakti Samantha (producer), RDB and the rest still wanted Rafi for all the songs but he was out of the country at the time so they opted for Kishore to sing the other songs. When SDB recovered, he didn't mind RDB's choice because he was never really against Kishore throughout his career and had used him in his Dev Anand films. It is interesting to note that SDB was still Rafi oriented all the way in later releases like Ishq Par Zor Nahin and Talaash, two big musicals that came after Aradhna. It is only in the seventies after recording "Mera Man Tera Pyaasa.." in Gambler that he made the switch in this film itself by giving all the other songs to Kishore. From then on it was Kishore who dominated his recording room with Rafi coming in for choice songs just as he did for RDB starting from around 1973. RD helped quite a bit in the orchestrations of all the songs of Aradhna.

Same case with Kati Patang, according to Shakti Samantha, Mukesh came in for "Jis Gali Mein Tera..." because Kishore was out of the country.

Trackji good observations. The song "Hai kali kali ke lab par" was, however, not picturised on Talat Mehmood
and hence one error.

I know we are again going off topic. We have forgotten Tapan Kumar. My son who is 25 today quizzed me if I knew the real name of this guy — as he had expected I failed miserably as I knew this bloke's neither real nor reel name.

For lack of a subforum that deals with all great singers simultaneously I am bending the rules here as everyone else seems to doing so anyway and will discuss other singers too.

Prince , can you tell us why Shakti Samanta did not even consider Rafi to be fit to be a subsitute for Kishore and chose Mukesh instead as his second choice? At that time I am sure Shakti Samanta was still a heavy weight and both RD and Kaka Rajesh were not in a position to dictate terms. Or was it that Rafi simply chose not to sing it or was he is still in his never ending tour abroad?

Fot this song, in my opinion, Rafi would have been the best choice. It is soft-sounding like the songs from GUIDE " Tere Mere Sapne" and "Dil Dhal Jayen, " both songs Kishore wanted so badly and SDB refused to oblige him despite the fact he had a soft corner for KK, saying that only Rafi could do full justice to these songs.

I am really puzzled here. Come to think of it and going back on track. Tapan Kumar could have also sung these two Guide 1965 songs very well. After all SDB had used him so well in Taxi Driver 1954. Had 11 intervening years made such a difference? He wound have rendered his magic to "Jis Gale Mein " too. But perhaps he was already out circulation and the Kid RDB would not have known what to do with him.

Awaiting comments.

Binod.

Mahesh ji

Talat Mahmood was the hero of the movie and I have seen the film. I would be shocked if I was wrong on this. Who was it piturised on then?

I have been reading this thread with interest. I remember reading an article in Filmfare, a long time ago,
after Mukesh's death. they had mentiond two songs of Mukesh picturised on Dilip Kumar.
The first song was " Yeh mera diwanapan hey " from Yeahudi. DK was insisting on Talat, his playback voice at the time. However Shankar Jaikishan were strongley in favour of Mukesh and very happy when
coin flipped in Mukesh's favour. The other song was " Suhana safar aur yeh mausam hase" from Madhumati.
In this lyricist Shilendra insisted that he had writen the song with Mukesh in mind and pleaded for Mukesh.
Incidentley both the movies were Bimal Roy production. The fact that both the songs were super hits of it time and are just as popular today may be says the songs creators knew what they were doing. I believe
Shilendra also convineced SDB, who for whatever reason was not a Mukesh fan, to use him for " O jane wala
ho sake to lautke anaa" in Bandini. Yet another Bimal Roy film. In fact I can't imagine anyone else singing
the three songs mentioned above. IMHO Jis gale mein was tailor made for Mukesh.

Ramesh

Binod ji,

There could be various reasons why Rafi saab did not sing "Jis Gali Mein Tera...". As you mentioned he might have been out of the country for a prolonged period of time and they wanted to record the songs a.s.a.p so they didn't have time to wait.

Secondly, RD may have created this composition with only Mukesh in mind and although at the time RD was not in a position to dictate terms, Shakti Samantha might have given RD complete freedom to do what he thought was best and in this case went along with the idea of using Mukesh.

In the past producers had a big say as to which singer would sing in their films. We've heard stories about BR Chopra wanting Mahendra Kapoor for his films so Ravi had to take him over his favourite Rafi and there are some producers who like a variety of singers. Shakti Samantha after using Rafi in his previous movies probably did not mind the use of Kishore in Kati Patang since he had become popular with Rajesh Khanna so he decided along with his team including RD to use him for all the songs of Kati Patang and RD may have suggested the use of Mukesh on the basis of "it was created for him" and therefore Mukesh was brought in. This is ofcourse all speculation but going by the look of things, it could have been possible.

I agree, Talat could have been an interesting choice for the Guide songs but there are some factors to consider. Rafi and Dev made a sparkling combination and it would have been hard for SDB to let that go. Furthermore, only Rafi could have done justice to the compositions and not any other singer. Also, Rafi was one a SDB favourite and at that time they were on a high level in terms of their collaboration so there is another reason. Guide was the pinnacle of SDB's career and Rafi played a big part in making the album a classic.

As for Talat with RD, I find that an unusual combination simply because I think Talat would not have suited his style. Even L-P only used Talat once in their whole career in Woh Din Yaad Karo's duet with Lata.

Please do forgive me but I am repeating a part of my earlier post.

For listeners like us, it is difficult to analyase a song in terms of its impact, only professional musicians and singers can gauge that aspect. Hence the world of singing is very different for the common listener than most professional MD's and other knownedgeable people who understand the dynamics of music & singing. Our comments and views are motivated by our prefernces not theirs (in most cases).

There are many theories about the above matter but most of them are either erroneous or simply personal opinions.

Eithet RD or SDB could give the correct detail. Thanks to a close Bengali friend, I have the views of RD that he said in one of his last interviews in a local Bangla publication (i dont know which one).

He was asked about Aradhna/kishore/Rafi.

RD: Kishore was a very close friend even before he became popular by his singing. He came to the industry to be a singer. However after struggling to find a career as a singer he opted for acting but singing was always on his mind. Those were the days of Rafi and Mukesh and it was impossible for any singer to get the attention of the MD's or the audience. Although Kishore acted in many films in the 50's, the era of romantic heores in the 60's saw that Kishore was getting few film offers. He tried hard to get back into the singing mode and my father gave him songs frequently specially for Navketan Films. Kishore was dismayed that all his efforts were not getting him any singing assignments and he decided to go back to his home town.

Daddy was composing a very special tune for Aradhna and I said to Kishore not to go back and hold on as he would ask Dada to offer him that song. The song was Roop Tera Mastana. All other songs were to be sung by Rafi Sahab but due to his busy schedule we also offered Kishore Kora Kagaz Tha & Mere Sapon ki.

________________________________________________________________________________
_________

The above was more or less what RD said about Aradhana.

As far Rafi, RD said waht can I say about rafi Sahab, Rafi had nothing to prove he was an icon for all. He was a busy singer and was hard to get him with his busy national and international schedule (Rafi apparently had done more shows than any other singer ). I worked with Rafisaab till the end.

________________________________________________________________________________
_________

IMO with the number of songs he was recording, it was not humanly possible for Rafi to sing just about every song. For a singer that in his own words had sung 25,000 songs till 1969, it would take its toll on anyones health. Singing the way they he did for so many years consistently, meant a lot of exertion on the heart. Many belive that it was a blessing in disguise that Rafi sang less songs in the 70's than in the 60's. He ultimately succumbed to an heart attack and so did Kishore who was diagnosed with the disease as early as 81.This was one of the primary reason for Lata to reduce her singing assigments in late 80's.

Also to add, Rafi did not sing a single song for almost 10 months from 72-73 due to the Haj that he had performed and those were the lean years for him in terms of not singing many songs. That however all changed from 74 onwards and he and Kishore were more or less the core of playback singing in that era.

It was Mukesh and Rafi for most of 50's and 60's and Rafi and Kishore for the 70's. Nothing much had changed for Rafi except that Kishore was now accepted as a singer by both the masses and the MD's.

Just because Kishore did not sing J'is Gali mein', it does not mean it had to be sung by Rafi. RD had Manadey singing for Dharmendra in Seeta aur Geeta, not Rafi or Kishore. He had Mukesh singing Kahin Karti hogi not Kishore or Rafi. He had Rafi singing for Rajesh Khanna in Kahe Ko Bulaya and O tere Athuru and not Kishore.

As I said we can only speculate as common listeners, we dont undersatand the thought process of experts, the MD's and professional singers.

And with all due respects, Talat an interesting choice for Guide songs - no way. Please no more of this.
Talat's voice was good for the slow, low pitch songs of the 40's and most of 50's. He did not have the range or the variety to go beyond that era. Infact no one did except Rafi and to some extent Mukesh who in my view is an unsung hero. 'Kabhi Kabhi mere dil mein' proved that Mukesh too was a singer for all seasons.

Thanks
T

Thanks to all who responded so far with their long comments. Thinking and committing those analyses to paper is a time consuming exercise and for a lengthy write-up it is even more so.

I do agree that “Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.” It is not for us to analyze music, which should be left to the musicians/singers and that I feel that I am ludicrously stretching the discussion to speculation. But that is my way of piquing interest and generating discussion. Otherwise we would be either only praising singers or only downloading/uploading since this forum is one for music lovers and not music producers. Since RDB, SDB, Rafi, Talat, Mukesh, Kishore are all long dead there is no way to access them and know the truth. Hence, the speculation based on some clues they left behind. It is like finding out what God did to this earth a million years ago.

With the above preface, let us resume our discussions.

Two of the posts have mentioned about tunes being made with a singer in mind. I am really perplexed. Aren't tunes made with the actors in mind? For example, if the hero was Shammi Kapoor, the MD made tunes going with his persona and all the songs done in his voice, be they sad, happy, funny, and/or classic would be by the voice that best represented him, which was Rafi’s. If the hero was his own brother Raj Kapoor, they made the songs that epitomized his persona and the songs went for his ghost voice, Mukesh, irrespective of the type of song. So in films each singer sings the song with the film star in mind and sings any type of song that goes with the image of the star. Thus, the MD makes the songs with the star in mind and not with the singer in mind.

That is why the Kati Patang songs were made with Rajesh Khanna in mind, not Kishore Kumar or Mukesh or even Rafi in mind. If any singer was chosen the singer had to modulate his voice to dovetail that of Rajesh (high fidelity) as far as possible. This is what differentiates playback singing from singing non-film songs where the singers had the freedom to be themselves.

Rafi was better than all the other singers including female singers in changing his voice to suit the actor's style. This was not only God's gift to him. He would spent hours studying the voice, accent, and pronunciation styles of the actor he was singing for. So the song "Jis Gali Mein" was not made with Mukesh in mind but with Rajesh in mind and I think that Rafi would have reproduced his voice better than Mukesh.

Besides copying the voice of the actors for whom he sang and carving out a distinct style for each actor, Rafi used to try to replicate the voice signature of the MD if the MD sang. For example, he used to sing in a more manly tone for Ravi and in a more effeminate or delicate way for Madan Mohan. His OPN, Naushad, SJ, LP, Roshan songs could easily be recognized as belonging to different MDs, whereas Mukesh would not carry the stamp of the MD and all one could identify was Mukesh himself but not the MD in his songs, because Mukesh would not try to copy any actor’s or MD’s style but would continue to be himself. The only person that he did copy was Saigal in the initial stages of his career. Mukesh was a very good singer but in my opinion a poor playback singer.

Although Rafi’s voice is distinctly his own unique type, I have noticed Rafi sing in other male singers’ styles with voice adjustments. Off the bat some examples that come to mind are: his Kishore style (e.g. film: Pyaasa 1957 = Hum Aap Ki Aankhon Mein) and his Mahendra Kapoor style (e.g. film: Mere Sanam 1965 = Tukde Hai Mere Dil Ke & Bahu Begum 1967 = Ham Intezar Karenge, especially the antara part of this song).

I have heard him sing a number of velvety songs and ghazals in a subdued, soft, and slightly vibratory voice that goes toward the Talat style but I can’t recall which ones right now. Even others analysts before me in other discussion fora have remarked on Rafi’s ability to sing Talat style minus the extreme tremolo that goes with Talat’s voice.

If you recall that the second time Talat sang before Anil Biswas, he did it without the tremolo as some of his well wishers had advised him that his voice was better that way. Anil was very disappointed and asked him what happened to the magic in his voice. I am sure Talat minus the tremolo would have sounded like a Rafi singing in a soft voice over a limited tonal range. Perhaps that is why Anil detested Rafi’s voice. It reminded him of the disappointing experience he had with Talat in his second encounter.

Perhaps the Talat nexus was what made C Ramchandra use Rafi sparingly. Most male songs he would rather sing himself than give them to Rafi. Only the really tough songs were given to Rafi. The simple ones he sang himself. In my opinion his voice was half way between Rafi’s and Talat but not so sweet and rich as that of the Pakistani singer Saleem Raza whose fantastic voice has both some of the good sides of Rafi and Talat. Perhaps, I conjecture that Ramchandra thought himself as a Talat without the tremolo or a Rafi with a limited voice range. That is why he could make do without using Rafi in most male songs.

Last year I heard Rafi sing a song in which he has used more nasal resonance than usual, a bit the way Mukesh did, and I was thinking that I should note the song down for future discussions like this one but forgot to do so. I am sure if I search for several months I should find it. It is not a well known song but Rafi’s voice in Mukesh style is very resonating without being too loud.

Awaiting your remarks.

Binod.

Rafi and limited voice range??? No way my friend.

Rafi raised the benchmark that reamains to date and one of the unique qualities of his voice was his amazing vocal range and variety. That was the most crucial differentiating factor he possesed compared to other singers.

IMO as far as Anil Biswas was concerned it was a matter of prefernce and not the skills of Rafi and that's where the master composer faltered in gauging Rafi. To say he detested Rafi's voice is getting over the top. Anil Biswas in an inteview in 86 clearly said Rafi was a great singer who achieved feats that no one would probably achieve, its just that he thought Rafi's voice did not go well his kind of music.

How wrong he was, listen to the songs Rafi has sung for him and then you will appreciate my comments.

The fact that C Ramchandra approached Rafi for tougher songs shows that he knew what Rafi was capable of. It is understandable that he song the easier songs himself rather than trying to get Rafi in the recording room specially with a busy schedule Rafi had for more than 3 decades.

In late 60's when CR was going through a lean phase, he had to go to Rafi to sing songs of Rootha Na Karo which were not only hugh hit then but heard even today.

It is a bit harsh to single out Mukesh only for not adjusting or varying his voice to suit the stars or the MD's, besides Rafi no one did that anyway.

Thanks
T

What Binod-ji meant was that CR imagined himself as a Talat without the tremor in the voice (as Talat-sahab had) and that CR imagined himself as a Rafi but without Rafi-sahab's immense voice range.

The references were to CR and not to the singers.

To the best of my knowledge, in the case of CR it was not that he had a preference for other male singers. Reportedly, they had a falling out, after which Rafi-sahab rarely worked with CR. The story goes that CR entered the industry with the ambition of becoming a singer, but met with little success and then became a music director. Supposedly, during a rehearsal he addressed a rude remark to Rafi-sahab that after acquiring fame and wealth the singer was not inclined to work hard. This was interpreted as jealousy on the part of the MD-cum-singer-wannabe, and led to their distancing from each other.

Unni:

Just call me Binod without the Ji. Thank you for your clarification on my behlaf. Although I strive to be articulate I do not always succeed. At least you seem to understand me — perhaps some resonance of ideas here.

Thanks for the extra information on CR. It seems to me that CR was a highly complex man with strong ambitions but not succeeding in both his singing career front ( I do not recall another MD than himslef who used him as a singer) and love affairs (with the current 76 year old grand lady, who not only jilted him but made sure that no public credit was given to him when she sang "Aye Mere Watan" in a live performance).

My intention in singling out Mukesh here was purely contextual since we were talking about "Jis Gale Mein" and he happened to be the singer there. Yes, only Rafi had pefected the skills to alter his voice according to the demands made on it. But later on in his career, also Kishore started to inject more variety in his voice as he was getting better by the day. Perhaps success was a great motivating factor here.

Thanks.

Binod.

It was BIKRAM KAPOOR.

Here is a video clip :

Click to view attachment

Unni ji, thanks for the clarification, Binodji, I got you. Mahesh Bhai thanks for the clip, I do appologise for this accidental error. Maheshji are you able to upload the full video or the full song in a C quality.

Regards
T

That was a rare treat and must say talat has sung it quite well. after all he was a class act as well!

Track, I mentioned that Rafi saab could only have sung the songs of Guide and no one could have done justice to them. When I mentioned Talat being interesting, I only mentioned it strictly from a Dev Anand point of view in the sense he had sung for the hero previously. SDB was the master in creating songs to suit a singer. Hence we have Hemant in the sixties with Baat Ek Raat Ki's "Na Tum Hamein Jano" and we know Hemant was no patch on Rafi in that era, but the song was excellent even though his voice didn't suit everyone, and Madan Mohan using Talat as late as 64 in Jahan Ara. So if we had Talat coming in for Dev in the sixties, it would have been suited to his style. Ofcourse the Guide songs as we know them today could not have been sung by Talat or for that matter anyone else, but if they were composed for him keeping in mind Dev's image and strictly to suit his voice, it would have been different. My apoligies for not mentioning it before.

As for Aradhna, Amit Kumar gave a different version from RD's story and Raju Bharatan who had personal associations with the Burmans also had different views so all we have are their comments and not one solid version of the situation. As Binod ji mentioned, it is hard for us to find out the exact truth and we have to go by their clues. As much as Rafi was busy, RD only had one singer in mind to take center stage in his music room after he could dictate terms, and that was Kishore. Rafi and others came second when it came to his preferred male voice, but its ironic that Rafi was the very person who helped RD rise to fame and glory with his late sixties to early seventies releases.

Binod ji, I still think "Jis Gali Mein..." was meant with Mukesh in mind keeping the sombre type of his voice in mind and not Rajesh Khanna. Most MD's of that time kept a singer in mind when creating a song and that is how they would compose the tune and the melody of the song, so IMO I think RD tuned to this song to his voice. RD in his career showed a preference for a particular singer which would suit the style of the song. As Track mentioned, we have Rafi coming in for the Kishore-bhakt Rajesh Khanna in Humshakal's "Kahe Ko Bulaya..." and Bhupinder coming in for Jeetendra in Kinara's "Naam Gum Jaayega.." or his duet with Lata "Bite Na Bitaai Raina...", and for these songs RD had Bhupinder in mind.

There is also a rumour that RD wanted to give "Mere Naina Sawan Bhadon..." to Rafi but Rajesh Khanna persuaded him to give it to Kishore. All this is once again just rumours and no one really knows the truth unless you talk to someone who was associated with those great artists.

As for C. Ramachandra, he was of the view that no singer, not even Rafi or Lata could give 100% to his compositions. But he was a marvelous composer and many rated him amongst the vert best. In fact Shankar even rated him better than SD Burman and Shankar had a very high regard and respect for SD.

Many thanks to Shahrukh3K and Azghar for the uploads of Talat's version of Chal udja re panchhi - from the archives of HF !!

Sri

The story that I am aware of about Rafi being preferred to Talat in Chal Ud Ja Re Panchhi relates to the "Aalap" at the conclusion of the song. In the scene in which Nanda is seen leaving Jagdeep and boarding the train, the director felt the need of an Alaap in the backgrpound to enhance the effect of separation of brother and sister. both Rajinder Krishan and Chitragupt felt that Talat will not be able to do justice to this requirement. That's where the choice of the singer inevitably fell upon Rafi. So when you listen to Talat's version, there is no Alaap, while Rafi's version ends gloriously with one of the best concluding Aalaps that you would ever here in a Hindi film song.

Pradeep

Sorry but i cant see the Part-2 here
Plz reupload or gimi the url and oblige
Thanx
Yasmin.

Ido need this song. Pl re upload if someone have.
thanks in advance.

rasik