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dimps
post Feb 20 2006, 01:09 PM
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Hi Mandrakeji (Suhas)

try the link now - I edited my post

The point I was trying to make is :

evolutiion -
Starting with
Fish - waterborne
Tortoise - amphibian - water and land ?
Animal - Varag - pig - land...
Lion - King of forest ?
Dwarf - ealry form of human ?

Yes - Balaram and Kirshna..why would there be co-existense -
omni present ? avatar in more than one place at same time ?

Last one - some say as Kalki and othes as Budha..

which is correct?
Again - no o ffence meant to anyone - but just a point of discussion

Lalitha


There's no use in weeping,
Though we are condemned to part:
There's such a thing as keeping
A remembrance in one's heart:
...........by Charlotte Bronte


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Mandrake
post Feb 20 2006, 01:15 PM
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Thanx Lalitha - the link is working now. Truly fascinating stuff - whether one believes or not.

And yes, none of us here is getting offended about anything - this is just a discussion going on, and no attempt to transform anybody's mind wink2.gif

Thanx for coming to this thread. You've become a rare species wink2.gif

Pls do grace more of the threads that we visit bow.gif

Self - belief is the most potent force.
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dimps
post Feb 20 2006, 01:28 PM
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Ya Suhas - will try asmuch as I can..

I did mention in another thread
to Nimmi the reason for my long absence..

2005 being a very bad period for me...
with a head accident and retina detachment
and so eye problem and eye operation and
what not...

Almost 80 % blind during this period
slowly limping back to normal but
unfortunately, I have only
60 % visiion now and - left eye almost blank...
Never say die spirit so meeting life at
full speed...(hi hi hi)

let us wait and see
how this thread develops...
await input from others on this.


There's no use in weeping,
Though we are condemned to part:
There's such a thing as keeping
A remembrance in one's heart:
...........by Charlotte Bronte


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Nimii
post Feb 20 2006, 03:52 PM
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dimps ab bhi koi improvement nahi hai kya cry.gif

You must consult shankar netralaya in Chennai mellow.gif It is the best place re!!!!!!!!!!!

N sorry.gif
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dimps
post Feb 20 2006, 04:19 PM
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Ya Nimmi -
did that also - went to Shankara Nethralaya in Chennai
and underwent whole lot of tests and they
confirmed what Mumbai eye doctor confirmed -

phirbe consulted yet another doctor in Chennai
privately, who works for Shankara Nethralaya -
nothing
can be done now - try and preserve what is left...
is what all advised me.

Can complete EYE ransplantation be done..like they do
heart transplantation? wonder..
I had sent my diagnosis to my cousins abroad to
check up and learnt nothing further can be done

THAT IS LIFE..

There's no use in weeping,
Though we are condemned to part:
There's such a thing as keeping
A remembrance in one's heart:
...........by Charlotte Bronte


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Nimii
post Feb 20 2006, 04:31 PM
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Sigh! Dimps ye kya hogaya headbang.gif

N cry.gif
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bibhas
post Feb 20 2006, 11:32 PM
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QUOTE(anurag @ Feb 18 2006, 06:07 PM) *

Bibhas, MJ, so did the evolution take place or not? I could n't understand much of what Bibhas had posted. Though, his own explanations are as lucid as they can be. Bhabhi kaa haath on V-day and the Hard drive metaphors were illuminating. biggrin.gif

Need some Engineering like explanation.

Anurag,
Check out the link Lalithaji (dimps) posted. It's a wonderful documentary that talks about everything I wrote and more in a very simple language with pictorial reconstructions of all the species that make the different stages of human evolution. Yes, evolution did take place and this documentary should convince you of that.

Mandrake- Please check the material I added to my post on evolutionary timelines on the previous page.
http://www.hamaraforums.com/index.php?s=&s...ndpost&p=223507


QUOTE(dimps @ Feb 20 2006, 02:39 AM) *

The point I was trying to make is :

evolutiion -
Starting with
Fish - waterborne
Tortoise - amphibian - water and land ?
Animal - Varag - pig - land...
Lion - King of forest ?
Dwarf - ealry form of human ?

Yes - Balaram and Kirshna..why would there be co-existense -
omni present ? avatar in more than one place at same time ?

Last one - some say as Kalki and othes as Budha..

which is correct?
Again - no o ffence meant to anyone - but just a point of discussion

Lalitha

Lalithaji,
Very sorry to hear about your eyesight. I hope that a solution comesforth soon.
Thank you very much for posting that link to an amazing documentary. Had I found that before, it would have saved me a lot of typing. laugh.gif
The parallels between dashavataras and the theory of evolution are indeed fascinating. Wonder why there wasn't a primate avatar between Narasimha and the first human avatar!

-B

A science that does not deliver us to the portals of metaphysics is a failed science and a religion that does not embrace physics is not grounded in reality.
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shivani
post Feb 27 2006, 06:40 PM
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Lalitha

I am very sorry to hear about the accident... and equally amazed at your spirit and positive attitude. Can only hope that medicine would be able to help you in some manner in near future.
(Still have not found time to look at the link you posted .. would be back later with comments and questions )

QUOTE(bibhas @ Feb 20 2006, 02:52 AM) *

Folks, I would like to know the following:
1. What does everyone feel about evolution being directed? Do you agree or disagree with that? Especially Shivani, you haven't posted your reaction to my conch-shell analogy.
4. Finally, do you agree that evolution is a currently ongoing process?



I will post my commnets later Bibhas, meanwhile came across these and could not help but share with you guys : ).

Attached Image

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shivani
post Mar 4 2006, 11:09 PM
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QUOTE
1. What does everyone feel about evolution being directed? Do you agree or disagree with that? Especially Shivani, you haven't posted your reaction to my conch-shell analogy.


We slowly ascended from lower life forms to what we are today, by a process of "natural selection" from randomly occurring changes. Each change had to prove its worth by surviving the continual battle for existence, being against being, species against species and this process has gone on for many millions of years.
I agree to evolution, but the evolutions to me seems rather well designed.


One thought often nags me.. there are other creatures from the same era, who did not evolve as we did, and they did go through same situation. It can be said that their geographical location was different, and so they did not have to go through the exact same situation that we had to. I still cant wondering if the choices we made were just one of the probabilities or there was indeed a predecided path we followed. Other animals do not have as evolved brains we humans, but they have survived alongwith us under similar circumstances. Humans became bipedal, learnt agriculture and creation of tools, developed language and various other forms of expression. They learnt to build and make efficient use of available resources. All this learning is needed for survival or not, is questionable.

QUOTE

Hominoids, (the superfamily of primates that contains apes and humans) evolved during the Miocene epoch (24 million to 5 million years ago). Large ape species had originated in Africa by 23 or 22 million years ago. Among the oldest known hominoids is a group of apes known as Proconsul. Species of Proconsul had features that suggest a close link to the common ancestor of apes and humans.


The two had a common ancestor. The two could not have survived far apart from each other. Yet one group drifted far apart from all other species of the era. Adaptation to the environment is a capability of Mammal Brain, and Apes qualify for that as well. The modification of Instinctive behaviour is as well controlled by the Mammal brain, rather than the human brain. Human brain was no different from a chimp's to start with. Their intelligence level was same, yet chimps did not learn that better ways of survival that their cousins discovered/devised. They could also imitate and we could have two similar species living on the planet. But that did not happen. Homo Sapiens came to be the odd one out. The organ that got affected most in their case, their Brain made all the difference, and the process is still going on. Whereas rest all species followed a different pattern, and seem to have more or less stopped where they were. Why did humans came where they are!!


PS : I know I need to read and understand lot more before I can comeup with some real questions. Please bear with my confusion and learning process. I am sure, I would go back and forth in the whole discussion a lot.
PPS : Bibhas, I did not get tiem to go through the link yet. Will read and get back to you with questions. You are not off the hook on that one as yet : ).
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shivani
post Mar 4 2006, 11:39 PM
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QUOTE

2. MJ, what is your reaction to the brain's 10-90 use-disuse concept after my response?


Some more on what I found on how brain functions : ). I agree to your understanding that 10% usage is a myth. -
What does it mean to "use only 10% of your brain?" Does this statement imply that only 10% of the brain's neurons is active at any one time? If so, how could this be measured? Does the statement assume that only 10% of the brain is firing action potentials at one time? Even if this was true, the discharge of action potentials is not the only function of neurons. Neurons receive a constant barrage of signals from other neurons that result in postsynaptic potentials. Postsynaptic potentials do not always result in the generation of action potentials. Nevertheless, these neurons, even in the absence of generating action potentials, are active.

If all neurons of the brain were generating action potentials at the same time, it is highly likely to result in dysfunction. In fact, some neurotransmitters, such as GABA, act to inhibit the activity of neurons and reduce the probability that an action potential will be produced. Massive excitation of neurons in the cerebral cortex may result in seizures such as those that occur during epilepsy. Inhibition of neuronal activity is a normal and important function of the brain. In other words, some areas of the brain keep other areas quiet.

It is also important to keep in mind that neurons are not the only type of brain cell. Although there are an estimated 100 billion neurons in the human brain, there are another ten to fifty times that number of glial cells in the brain. Glial cells do not generate action potentials. Glial cells function to:

* support the brain structurally
* insulate axons
* clean up cellular debris around neurons
* regulate the chemical composition of the extracellular space

Would we behave normally without 90 billion neurons and billions of glial cells? Would we be just fine if 90% of our brains was removed? If the average human brain weighs 1,400 grams (about 3 lb) and 90% of it was removed, that would leave 140 grams (about 0.3 lb) of brain tissue. That's about the size of a sheep's brain. Clinical evidence indicates that damage to even a small area of the brain, such as that caused by a stroke, may have devastating effects. Some neurological disorders (e.g., Parkinson's disease) also affect only specific areas of the brain. Disabilities may arise after damage to far less 90% of any particular brain area. Because removal of small essential brain areas may have severe functional consequences, neurosurgeons must map the brain carefully before removing brain tissue during operations for epilepsy or brain tumors.

Apart from that, in our brain, there are redundant pathways that serve similar functions. This redundancy may be a type of "safety mechanism" should one pathway for a specific function fail. Still, functional brain imaging studies show that all parts of the brain function. Even during sleep, the brain is active. The brain is still being "used"; it is just in a different active state.

From a developmental perspective, the 10% of the brain statement also fails. The adage "use it or lose it" seems to apply to the developing nervous system. During development, many new synapses in the brain are formed. After birth, many synapses are eliminated later on in development. This period of synaptic development and elimination goes on to "fine tune" the wiring of the nervous system. It appears that correct input is required to maintain a synapse. If input to a particular neural system is eliminated, then neurons in this system may not function properly.

QUOTE
3. Does the brain have ability to sense


Please explain the Question. Brain can feel the physical pain or it also has the capability of thought. What senses are we talking about here?

QUOTE
4. Finally, do you agree that evolution is a currently ongoing process?


Human evolution is directly linked to evolution of their brains. In so many centuries, we have become capable of archiving and using the information, but not exactlyt learnt to put it in our brain. Most of it still needs to be learnt. Also, the ability to learn more has not changed, which suggests that over brain has not significantly evolved. OR maybe I do not know of the differences and so not in a position to comment.
It would be nice if you could point out some specific examples, what kind of information is already available now to us upon birth.

Look at the chart above I posted... it indicates, we are still quite young. So yes, we will grow, but how and where, dont know.
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dimps
post Mar 17 2006, 11:47 AM
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QUOTE(Mandrake @ Feb 20 2006, 12:57 PM) *

Interesting observation Dimps.

2) Balaram and Krishna were both avatars of Vishnu? Split personality? (They co-existed)
WASN'T BALARAM an avatar of ADISHESHA.. ?
3) After using force to attain peace in almost every successive avatar, I wonder why Vishnu came as Buddha. No chance to show his heroics in that role wink2.gif

Is Buddha an aberration? Or was is some other god that came as Buddha?


I have been wanting to write something on this...but somehow,
could not find the right opportunity

Pls read my comment in RED...any one ?

Suhas - I am trying to post a link here, in regard to Budha - just a
matter for discussion I am not trying to raise a hornest nest...
it needs a lot of patience to go thro

I was sent the following links.. which I am unable to
read fully - we need someone with knowledge of sanskrit for this
I suppose.. gist of which is..

Buddha is and avatar of Lord Vishnu an none can deny that - the links
of Dashavathara stuti and Dvadasha sthothra
indeed points to that

Attached File  dashavatarastuti_2_.pdf ( 81.28 k ) Number of hits: 1 by members


Attached File  dvAdasha_stotra_2_.pdf ( 102.49 k ) Number of hits: 0 by members


study these links and you wont deny Buddha as the ninth avatar of the Lord.

There's no use in weeping,
Though we are condemned to part:
There's such a thing as keeping
A remembrance in one's heart:
...........by Charlotte Bronte


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sri
post Mar 17 2006, 12:03 PM
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QUOTE(dimps @ Mar 17 2006, 11:47 AM) *
QUOTE(Mandrake @ Feb 20 2006, 12:57 PM) *

2) Balaram and Krishna were both avatars of Vishnu? Split personality? (They co-existed)
WASN'T BALARAM an avatar of ADISHESHA.. ?



Pls read my comment in RED...any one ?



Absolutely correct, dimps !!

" Balarama, elder brother of Krishna, was an avatar or incarnation of Adisesha, the 1000-hooded serpent on which Lord mahavishnu reclines in Vaikuntha " - extract from Mahabharata by C Rajagopalachari

Co-existing avatars are mentioned in the Ramayana - e.g., Rama and Parashurama. both avatars of Vishnu - who come face-to-face in the story, and the purpose of Parashurama's avataar comes to an end when he realises that Rama is also an incarnation of Vishnu.

Sri

"Jis din is duniya se nafrat aur khudgarzi mit jaayegi, us roz yeh insaan naachega, us roz yeh dharti gaayegi" - Rajinder Krishan (Maa baap 1959)
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Mandrake
post Mar 17 2006, 12:06 PM
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Yes Lalitha, we have always read that Balaram was the avatar of Shesha, just as Laxman too was.

Interesting points are, Shesha is Vishnu's assistant in many ways, and will always agree to do what Vishnu wants.

But Balaram often is doing things that do not fall in line with Krishna's thinking. For instance, his fondness for Duryodhana is way beyond his fondness for the Pandavas. Also, he isn't a big player on the Mahabharat scene. Why?

I haven't learnt sanskrit conventionally, so this dashaavtarstutistotra is not open to detailed interpretation from me.

But going by general logic, I had said that the quiet and peaceful ways of Buddha do not tie in easily with the avataars. However, it is just a thought. In a way even Waman was a quiet fella...

And if there weren't so many pointers, I'd have been tempted to believe that Shivaji was the Kalki - avatar...

Self - belief is the most potent force.
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vivekpm
post Mar 17 2006, 12:26 PM
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QUOTE(Mandrake @ Mar 17 2006, 12:06 PM) *

But Balaram often is doing things that do not fall in line with Krishna's thinking. For instance, his fondness for Duryodhana is way beyond his fondness for the Pandavas. Also, he isn't a big player on the Mahabharat scene. Why?


Have heard somewhere that Sheshnag was tired of being younger brother and taking orders tongue1.gif and so he told Vishnu that in next incarnation he would be the elder one and ended up being Balaram in Krishna-avataar. Not sure about the authenticity of this story.

Cheers,

V i V e K ...

--------------------------------------------



Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.
-- Will Durant

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