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Posted by: Akhtar Nov 5 2004, 10:15 PM

Hi,

Could anyone point out some oustanding differences in between these languages ? (doesnt inlcude writing the languages)

Posted by: unni Nov 5 2004, 11:27 PM

Akhtar:

You've raised a very interesting point. I'm quoting an extract from the Preface to the 1992 edition of "URDU FOR PLEASURE - LUGHAT" by the late Sultan Nathani:

(QUOTE) Prior to Independence, the maximum number of journals and newspapers published in India were in the Urdu language. In the last 46 years Urdu has suffered a set-back due to continuous misgiving that Urdu is the language of Muslims. Urdu does not belong to any region or to any religion. It got developed by the natives speaking Brij Bhasha coming continuously in contact with Moghul army camps during their rule. The word 'Urdu' means 'Army camp'. This contact and communication between the natives of Northern India and Moghul soldiers developed into the Urdu language. It is not developed by any Pundits or Molvis. It is the people's language born in Delhi and purely an Indian language. No less a person than India's renowned journalist Khushwant Singh has said that Urdu is 'Kohinoor' among Indian languages. Today, it is the soul of the Indian film industry and the basic language for ghazals, film lyrics and stage performances.

The main hurdle with Urdu is that it is written in the Persian script. Today, the Persian script is definintely a foreign script for Indians and a divisive element in the way of national integration. During the 15th century, Persian was the script of Moghul Royalty.

There is no difference between Urdu and Hindi as they are gramatically similar. As a matter of fact, Muslims must demand that Urdu be taught in Hindi script in their own interest and also in national interest. Well-known poet Josh Malihabadi had personally expressed his opinion to me that in India, Urdu must adopt Hindi script in the interest of Urdu language and in national interest. Also, well-known poet Firaq Gorakhpuri and film-script writer Masoom Rahi Raza have publicly advocated that Urdu must be written in Hindi script in India. Hindi script would be the unification of two languages and spoken Urdu will remain pure and chaste as it is spoken now. The unification would require a minor change of adding 'Z' in the Hindi alphabet. (UNQUOTE)

Posted by: Akhtar Nov 6 2004, 04:08 PM

Many thanks for that interesting insight.

Many of my good freinds speak, what they call 'Hindi', to me, and I find it to be a carbon copy of urdu.

Posted by: Ankur Nov 9 2004, 02:10 PM

A similar doubt had occured to me while in school and I had asked my Hindi
teacher about it. He said that both these languages had evolved from a
language called Dakkani ( a spoken language on the Deccan plateau ).

The Moghul scholars gave this language the Persian script, while some
others gave it the Devanagri script ( i.e. the script used for Sanskrit ).
As the script changed the basic language diverged towards Persian
and Sanskrit forming Urdu and Hindi respectively.

There is little difference between the two languages but this difference is evident
when the pure versions of the languages are compared. What is generally spoken
however is a mix of both languages known as Hindustani.

Well happy to say that z as in 'Naaz' can be written by adding a
dot below the 'ja' consonant in Hindi.

Posted by: surinder Dec 14 2004, 07:59 PM

I know urdu is written from the right hindi is written from the left

Posted by: Bawra Jay Dec 15 2004, 12:48 AM

I have one great book by this same author its something called Intekhaab Au Laughat.... maybe same book with new name and re-edition..... I have the 2000 version edition...... Excellent book , a quick reference library for all Urdu poetry / song lovers.....

Posted by: SAJJAD Dec 15 2004, 01:03 AM

Sorry, i disagree! "Pure" Urdu is completely different then "Pure" hindi! In Urdu lang., there are tons of persian/arabic terms vs Hindi with Sanskrit. We (general public) speak a blend of hindi/urdu + regional slangs! Just read any urdu poetry and compare it with hindi poetry - they r totally different! Its not just in the written format!

Posted by: Bawra Jay Dec 15 2004, 01:24 AM

They both are descended from Sanskrit... or rather say there was literally no difference at a given time..... the difference was among the people coming from different parts or town of India before independence......

We all know or aware that how the roots of hindu - muslim or india-pakistan was sodded.... Here is from the chapters of history of India "In 19th century, the British insisted that the language of Muslim be entered as Urdu and the language of Hindus be entered as Hindi. The agitation over Nagri became a communal agitation. The Al-Bashir of 21 September 1901 pointed out that there was little distinction between Urdu and Hindi; the real difference was between the language spoken in towns and language spoken in the countryside. The Nagri agitation was to drag the language of refinement and culture into the morass of communal hatred."

Before British ... in the olden time most of the poets felt that they needed a language different than local dialect...something sort of superior form.... but even than Amir Khusro called it as "Rekhta"..... and not Urdu..... It was not before Mirza Ghalib ..... that it got popular as Urdu.... "Ameer Khusro is considered by some the first Urdu poet. At his time this language was used only for some poetry purpose and was called "Rekhta" not Urdu untill Mirza Ghalib's time. Ghalib was first Urdu prose writer in the form of letters to his friends. He called it "Urdu-e-Mu'alla" means superior Urdu to distinguish from the version spoken by masses."

Posted by: aahat Dec 15 2004, 10:44 AM

I completely agree with Sajjad. Urdu, formerly called 'Rekhta', was a langauge born in the market! It was spoken mainly by Afghan soldires..., had lot of vocabulary from Arabic, Persian, Punjabi, among others. Mir Taqi Mir (the wrter of the famous ghazal, 'Faqiirana aaye sada kar chale') is credited with formalizing the langauge.

I found this info on Net, but that is certainly not too close to what I read earlier.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urdu

Posted by: extenok Jan 13 2005, 08:08 PM

I agree with Sajjad on this one. Pure urdu is not what an average hindi-speaker gets to hear. The turkish/persian/arabic words in Urdu would boggle the hindi-speaker. Another addition that I would like to make here, 'Urdu' which means 'Army Camp' is a turkish word written as 'Ordu'.

Posted by: deep750 Jul 7 2005, 04:40 AM

as far as I know urdu became a "muslim language" beacuse it was the first Indian language the Koran was translated to, even though it had existed for ages. Urdu was at the startingpiont only a written language and not spoken, until the "muslimasation" of the language, and it approached languages as persian, arabic etc.
But is was also a official written language in india in the last period of english rule.

regarding spoken language, as earlier said, pure hindi and todays pure urdu are quite different languages.
But since both languages were used in the areas around Delhi, they borrowed words from each other so one easier could understand eachother.

the devanagri (hindi) alphabet does not have the sounds f, z and q.

they have later been made by addig dots beneath the most similar sounding characters. this implies that ALL hindi words that has the sounds of f, z and q are borrowed words.when one speaks hindi today, app. 30% of the words are borrowed.

Indias previous PM Vajpaye spoke quite pure hindi, which made (my guess) more then 70% of the public not understand what he said!
the hindi most peolple talk today is a mix of the languages hindi, urdu, punjabi, gujrati, marthi (and many other Indian languages) and english, and is also called hindustani instead of hindi, which I regard as a more correct name of the language...

so next time you try to speak in hindi try to change the "borrowed" words and you will probably be standing there with a bilingualk dictionary and looking for words.


hope this clearified some questions

Posted by: AzgarKhan Jul 7 2005, 05:33 AM

Its sad that languages are associated with religions.
Lanuage is a tool for communication.

Posted by: fiftysomeone Jul 7 2005, 07:42 AM

I remember as a graduate student in the US, some of my classmates from outside South Asia were quite intrigued by the languages spoken by students from India and Pakistan.
To such people, the (North) Indian woud say his native langiage was Hindi, the Pakistani woud say Urdu. Yet we woud talk fluently with each other, much to the amazement of the other nationalities.
One of them was even more surprised that I would speak with my Indian friends (from Chennai) in English but with the Pakistani in the same language (Hindi/Urdu)!
I also observed at that time that Hindi and Urdu are probably the only pair of languages in the world which sound almost identical yet are written completely differently - usually it's the other way around, same script but different sounds and vocabs.
Cheers.
50Some1

Posted by: deep750 Jul 7 2005, 06:34 PM

as I said earlier the languages have borrowed vocabulary from each other, and are actually mixes of various indian languages and english.

to underline how urdu became a indian-"muslim" language can be understood when I tell you that in most parts of Pakistan, urdu was non-existing language prior to 1947.
in most parts of Pakistan, Sindhi was the most used language. but at the establishment of India and Pakistan they chose to have Hindi and Urdu respectively as their official languages, even though urdu probably was more widespread in Delhi at that time and Sindhi in most parts of Pakistan.

Even in Punjab (India), urdu was the major written language in some parts.
You can probably confirm this through you parents or grandparents...

Posted by: NATURE Jul 13 2005, 02:57 PM

Yeah u r rite. Urdu was accepted as the major official Language in India, when British came
To India they realised how urdu was spreading, so they chose it as official Language. Urdu is
Known to be very Artistic Language, but it's not very independent like other Langs. It
used the words of Parsian, Arabic and also the words/Grammer of Hindi. That's why Hindi and
Urdu match eachother. Urdu was started developing during the times of Moghal(Babar - Akbar)
Mainly in South India .... So Urdu is the Language of India and not any other Country but Indian
Islamic Culture(mainly) is the 1 who was there behind its creation .....

Posted by: visuja Aug 10 2005, 11:38 AM

Nature-ji,

Your post sets off a query. Maybe Sajjad-bhai, Imran-bhai and others could clarify.

I remember watching the news telecast on Pakistan TV (for the few months it was allowed to be aired in Bombay) a few years back and was quite surprised at the language that was being spoken. Even Gen Musharraf's TV addesses that are sometimes aired on foreign channels (when they dont superimpose their translated versions on the audio) is soo different from the 'normal' Urdu which I thought I understood from my knowledge of Hindi. Are these the pure forms of Urdu or are they different dialects / versions of Urdu spoken in Pakistan ?

Its such a pleasure when listening to Dilip Kumar (Yusufsaab) and Naushad-sahab speak. Its a challenge to decipher the many words that they so effortlessly use in their regular conversation. Similarly, its a pleasure to listen to AB Vajpayee speak Hindi -- its so pure and unadulterated that most of the times I'm ashamed to say that I know Hindi !!

There was one more query I had which I had posted elsewhere (probably at an inappropriate forum):

I imagine the written alphabets of Hindi and Urdu are also different from each other:--- Hindi goes like A, Aa, I, Ii, O, Oo, etc.... Does Urdu also follow the same trend ? Or is it more english / greek-like say alpha, beta, gamma, etc .... the latter statement obviously being incorrect as I suppose Urdu would follow the Persian / Arabic system of alphabets. Maybe someone who knows both written Hindi and written Urdu could clarify ?

Vivek

Posted by: humble_rafi Aug 10 2005, 12:03 PM

I am a BENGLA speaking person but i have very high regards for URDU.URDU is all about TEHZEEB and KHULUS.I have few acquintances who speak purest form of URDU,i just keep on listening them as if MEETHI are coming out of their mouth.


Yup i dun mind if URDU is taught with DEVANAGARI script.I am a very poor URDU reader,everytime i have to spell the words i read. .


My neighbours are non-muslims but i was surprised to see that their signatures are in URDU.I was intrigued and asked them about it,the old man said he knows only urdu because in those days it was the 2nd language after english in schools.

I am very disappointed with the congress goverment ,they opened many URDU schools in DELHI only upto primary level for vote bank.

The kids have no future after completing primary level.They struggle in ENGLISH medium or in HINDI medium schools.

Yes URDU is not a language of any region or religion.Its a language of manners.

Posted by: NATURE Aug 10 2005, 03:39 PM

Visuja Ji , Thanks for the message .. lots of History and other things r there to know about ...
Did I say Alphabets r same ? I am sorry, that may be wrong( In general).
I also said It follows the Hindi Grammer and about the
Alphabets they may be different, but as far as words concern. There r so many words that came
From Hindi and Persian itself. At those times, Urdu was developed by many Literati and I just
Found from different websites that they started choosing the same words in some cases and
Modifying it from Persian and Hindi. As we know, Language is not a set of words that formed it ..
Day by Day new thinking minds r coming and new words r coming ... in that way Urdu got the 2days
Shape like other Languages. We can see many words r same in Hindi and Urdu and the way we
Speak Urdu is almost same as we speak Hindi and that's why I said "It uses the same Grammer as
Hindi" ... Not my personal view, but what I got from my different conversations I am just putting it
Here, ofcourse if somebody knows well then we all would like to know more and appropriate History.
In India, Punjab is the first state where Urdu was chosen as "Official language" by the British ...
Those times, Pakistan was in India so Urdu was able to spread so quickly mainly because of its
Artistic nature and in the beginning it started to spread among the Islamic Culture ...
Regarding the Point "How Urdu is spoken in Pakistan is a way different from some other places" ..
That's happening with every Language ... Ask Humble_Rafi Ji , he is Bengali but How Calcutta
People speak is different from the ways it is spoken in other states even it is different from North
Bengal ( Siliguri side, or other rural area ) ... in most of the languages I think the way of speaking
Vary from place to place may not be much but at least a bit ..
-------------
Please poure some Idea, if u know .. I know the Topic is learning "Urdu" but I am talking about its
History .... Is that bad ???

Posted by: humble_rafi Aug 11 2005, 12:53 AM

any language that cannot upgrade itself with time it will be a dead language.

just think abt SANSKRIT(technically its the best phonetic language)
and PALI language too.

we need to find alternative ways to save URDU from its extinction like its written form in hindi.

Posted by: deep750 Aug 21 2005, 07:19 PM

as I dont live in Bharat I dont know, but in Delhi it is written in urdu on many busses. is this only for the older generations who didn't learn devanagri, or are there people today who only learns urdu?

Posted by: bibhas Aug 25 2005, 10:49 PM

Vivek,
the kind of urdu you hear Dilip-saab and Naushad-saab speak is certainly a purer form, the commonspeak in India is a mixture of Hindi and Urdu. I am not sure about Urdu dialects in Pakistan, would like to hear from Imran or Inaam about that.

Now, about your query regarding the urdu alphabet, yes it is different from Hindi and is closer to Persian. The Urdu alphabet is:
Alif
be
pe
te
Te
se
jeem
che
baRi-he
khe
daal
Daal
zaal
re
Re
ze
zhe
seen
sheen
saad
zaad
to-e
zo-e
ain
ghain
fe
qaaf
kaaf
gaaf
laam
meem
noon
vaa-o
chhoTi-he
ye

Bibhas

Posted by: visuja Aug 26 2005, 01:10 PM

Thanks bibhas Didnt know u knew to read / write Urdu too ! The thing I precisely wanted to ask was whether Urdu followed a vowel + consonant system or was it more 'European' where all alphabets are arranged in one list.

An interesting observation :
English : 26 alphabets
Urdu : 35 alphabets (same as in Arabic / Persian ?)
Hindi / Sanskrit --- depending on usage ----- 12 vowels (+ 3-4) + 36 consonants.. about 48 alphabets

Is there any relation between number of alphabets and versatility / flexibility of a language ? Its a matter of permutation and combination that more the number of alphabets, more are the words that can be formed (of course, not all of them meaningful) and more are the rules of grammar associated with using those words in framing sentences. So on one hand, it brings in versatility to have a unique word for every occasion, while on the other hand, the rules of grammar could be quite overwhelming. Do you know languages which have the longest and shortest alphabet list?

I find words in Sanskrit are very precise -- as in there are no two ways of writing or pronouncing a word ---- a given word can be written and pronounced ONLY in that particular manner and both have a "one is to one" direct correspondence. While the English language as we all know "is a very phunny language". Theres no way to be certain of the spelling of a word, simply by hearing its pronouncation, and vice versa. (Some call that flexibility!)

My observation is simply based on my (limited) knowledge of Sanskrit and some knowledge of English (and absolutely no knowledge of Urdu).

Please feel free to correct / criticise my observations. My only purpose is to learn more about the different systems of alphabets arrangement and the features it offers to that particular language.

Vivek

Posted by: NATURE Aug 27 2005, 01:38 AM

Thank u Bibhas Ji and Visuja Ji for writing such a nice Letter. The Obervations u made
felt so good to know. Thank u Bibhas Ji for telling the Urdu "Alphabets" .. as u said
It is closed to Persian .. can u show us some Persian Alphabets .. and also which letters
In Urdu resemble the letters in Hindi or English .. would like to know more ... and eager to
Learn Urdu too .. don't know whether it will be possible here or not .. Bye

Waiting for a reply ...

Posted by: aaryana afghan Oct 17 2006, 08:58 AM

URDU IS BASICALLY VERY SIMILAR TO ARABIC IN SCRIPTURE.
URDU AND HINDI BOLNAY MAIN KAAFI SIMILAR HAIN PER LIKHNAY MAIN BUHAT DIFFERENT.
THE URDU WHICH IS SPOKEN IN PAKISTAN IS NOT MIXED UP WITH OTHER LANGUAGES
EXCEPT ENGLISH.BUT IN INDIA HINDI IS MIXED UP WITH MANY LANGUAGES AS INDIA IS A
HIGHLY POPULATED COUNTRY IT HAS MANY LANGUAGES.
BUT IN PAKISTAN YOU WILL FIND THAT IN MOST OF THE PROVICES URDU IS SPOKEN.
IN PUNJAB PEOPLE SPOKE URDU AND PUNJABI.
IN NWFP AND BALOCHISTAN MOST OF PEOPLE SPOKE PASHTO.AND
IN SINDH PEOPLE SPOKE SINDHI BUT MOST OF THEM ARE URDU SPEAKING.