Talat Mahmood in Concert- Review, LIVE at Royal Albert Hall |
Talat Mahmood in Concert- Review, LIVE at Royal Albert Hall |
extenok |
Aug 11 2004, 06:39 AM
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#16
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Dedicated Member Group: Members Posts: 1068 Joined: 25-October 03 Member No.: 33 |
Unni, thank you for the kind words. Your support, & of some other silent admirers, is always appreciated & held in high-regard.
Priya, look at this, Unni finally cracked the code. I was afraid of this happening. And here we were, eligible bachelors/bachelorettes, seeming all sophisticated & interesting, and he comes in to burst our bubble. Ok, coming to the point now, I also listen to happy songs, a LOT, but not of the HFM oldies variety. Some of the new ones, considering the current situations, almost all of them are happy songs. Plus, also pakistani pop music. I also must admit, I too enjoy listening & singing along to happy numbers, while going about ordinary chores. As for Unni's theory, I believe it is applicable to some extent. But, also depends, on how a person is generally, his temparament, personality, outlook on life, etc. I'm not one to fuss over what has happened or what will happen. But, the beauty with which it is described in sad songs, is appealing to me. Call me one who's infatuated with pessimism, or one who's in love with the idea of despair & the ever-romantic-yet-failing-lover. Anyway you put it, I prefer sad songs over happy songs. One interesting thing here, let us ask Unni whether his theory is still aplicable on him, when he's listening to Talat Mahmood songs. Priya, your suggestion on Talat sahab's duets with Asha, is understandable. But I don't believe I have all of them. So, till that collection is completed, I can not think about discussing it. P.S extenok: they were just two words that accidentally got written into the same messenger window (extend, ok) while talking to a friend. For some reason, I didn't forget the word, so ended up making a username out of it. zindagi ne kar diya, jab bhi udaas aa gaye ghabra ke hum, manzil ke paas sar jhukaaya, sar jhuka kar ro diye |
anurag |
Aug 11 2004, 06:54 AM
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#17
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Dedicated Member Group: Members Posts: 1618 Joined: 18-June 04 From: Xanadu, K-Pax Planet Member No.: 550 |
Unni, I feel absoultely jobless at the moment so let me go on and add my 2 cents to your categorization of Bachelors/Bachelorettes liking sad music more and old men/women liking peppy and happy music. I agree with your observations but not with the reasons. I think that bachelors who like music that expresses melancholy is because being young they feel the pain of separation, lost love and emotional sufferings more acutely and since they have little outlet to their emotions by virtue of an absence of their immediate family that they have not formed yet, it gets exhibited in their choice of music. While old men/women have already seen it all, they are experienced and they know that the life moves on; their intensity to identify with pain, though not having diminished, is no longer reflected in the music that they choose to listen. Young ones can afford to be sad since life just begins for them and they are learning while old ones can't - for them the life that is left is to be enjoyed to the hilt and not be saddened further by the sad songs. Disclaimer: This is not a discourse on why, in general, old people like happy-go-lucky type of songs and young unmarried men/women like sad type? It's merely to explain the phenomenon in those who are seen to be doing it. And, it's an explanation that should be taken with a handful of salt - not a pinch. anurag Socrates said, "The unexamined life is not worth living". I fear if I examined it, then according to Heisenberg uncertainty principle it would somehow change. After all, we are just particles.
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rom |
Aug 11 2004, 04:25 PM
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#18
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Dedicated Member Group: Members Posts: 6784 Joined: 6-February 04 Member No.: 233 |
Extenok,
Hats off to you, mate. I hadn't come across such a tremendous critique before on HF, and it was a pleasure to read it, start to end. It's obvious you've worked hard on the article, and that you are an amazing repository of knowledge about Talatsaab and the people who contributed to his songs. Like a true critic, you've recorded things as you heard and felt them, not as how you wanted to hear and feel. You say "fortunately or unfortunately" most of his songs were sad, but I personally think that it was fortunate indeed. Dr Unni, having dissected pain and closely examined people's preference for sad songs, has reached an incontrovertible conclusion, so I won't say more on that matter, but it's a fact, as the poet said, that our sweetest songs are those that tell of saddest thoughts. I might only add that it was Talatsaab's great fortune to give voice to perhaps the best ever poetry that has graced our film music... and, of course, nothing encapsulates the pain and sadness of love, longing and separation better than Urdu poetry. Your review also awakened my own memories of hearing of Talatsaab the first time in my life, in the 1970s or early 1980s, when a friend of my father's told him about hearing him in a concert. To be honest, he wasn't much impressed with the concert; he declared that the great singer was past his prime. Perhaps he was expecting a little more lively time than he had. But then, Talatsaab is for the select connoisseurs of music and poetry. I remember also watching his extended interview on Doordarshan in the 1980s. Such a remarkably handsome modest and gentle man. They showed a clipping from Sone Ki Chidiya in the interview, and that was also the first time I saw him as a young man on screen. My own love for his sweet voice started with the song Jalte Hain Jiske Liye and I love all the songs this live CD contains, except for a couple that I haven't heard. It doesn't have the song that I listen to most often, Shaam-e-Gham Ki Kasam, which is an out-of-the world rendition... especially the lines "Dhoondati Hai Nazar Tu Kahan Hai Magar Dekhate Dekhate Aaya Aankhon Mein Gham"... simply breathtaking! (I'm always reminded, when I hear these lines, of Keats' "Do I wake or sleep?") Finally, a great piece of work, Extenok, worthy of publication in magazines on music! THE INTELLIGENT MUST MAKE CONCESSIONS! |
extenok |
Aug 12 2004, 06:42 PM
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#19
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Dedicated Member Group: Members Posts: 1068 Joined: 25-October 03 Member No.: 33 |
rom,
Thank you for reading the article thoroughly and appreciating it. It was great to hear of your initial experience of Talat Sahab. And also comforting to know someone else who agrees with my opinion of Talat sahab being 'for the select connoisseurs of music and poetry'. Believe me, my disappointment was same as yours, if not more, on not finding some of the songs that I hold a strong preference for, 'Shaam-e-Gham' included. Just one correction, the shaer is, "Dhoondati Hai Nazar, Tu Kahan Hai Magar, Dekhate Dekhate Aaya Aankhon Mein Dum" not 'Gham'. I know some websites might list it as 'Gham', others as 'Num', fact of the matter is that Talat sahab says 'Dum', I would suggest anyone with doubts to listen to it with their headphones on. And the 'aankhon mein dam aana' phrase implies that his soul is about to leave his body, this is his last breath or alternatively, another translation could be that waiting and looking for his beloved has given him another lease on life, temporarily, at least. zindagi ne kar diya, jab bhi udaas aa gaye ghabra ke hum, manzil ke paas sar jhukaaya, sar jhuka kar ro diye |
iqbal |
Aug 12 2004, 07:33 PM
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#20
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Dedicated Member Group: Members Posts: 1761 Joined: 21-October 03 Member No.: 12 |
An excellent article Extenok, a pleasurable read. |
rom |
Aug 12 2004, 08:00 PM
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#21
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Dedicated Member Group: Members Posts: 6784 Joined: 6-February 04 Member No.: 233 |
Extenok, I always believed it was 'gham', which I understood to denote 'tears' in the line. Thanks for shedding new light on this. I'd definitely put my headphones on tonight when I listen to it. Heard Talatsaab's voice briefly on Ameen Sayani's radio programme a couple of days ago. He was relating how singers in the 1960s had set up an association, and of their plans to hold a 'nite' to raise funds. He also told how he and others managed to convince Kishore Kumar to sing before an audience, but the terrified KK went underground the day of the programme and remained untraceable. Best regards THE INTELLIGENT MUST MAKE CONCESSIONS! |
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unni |
Aug 12 2004, 08:06 PM
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#22
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Dedicated Member Group: Away Posts: 8769 Joined: 20-March 04 From: Vaanar Nivas, Tribandar Marg, Bandarabad, MONKEYSTAN. Member No.: 356 |
Extenok: "I do like happy songs. Just that, happy songs do not affect me as deeply as sad songs. Sad songs, I believe, bring more meaning to the whole picture. There is something magical and interesting about melancholy & despair; pining over something that is lost."
Priya: "Come to think of it I too have a preference for sad songs. But then some sad songs make one sad. While in others the grief is somehow so sublimated that it manages to uplift one--do i sound crazy?" rom: ".....but it's a fact, as the poet said, that our sweetest songs are those that tell of saddest thoughts." Leaving behind my frivolous discoveries, and to bring this discussion back on track: It seems to be the consensus, at least among the few who participated in this topic, that the preference is for sad songs. Strangely, I don't think of a song as "sad" even when it really is. What I notice is that sad songs, and even "across-the-board romantic songs" (e.g. "Ik shahanshah be banwakey haseen Taj Mahal" or "Do sitaron ka zameen par hai milan"), have greater appeal to me, for they are more melodious. As opposed to overtly happy songs. Predominantly, my uploads of Kishore-da songs have been the melancholic ones. A Lata-ji song I never tire of hearing is "Aap ki nazron ne samjha". I have a marked preference for the serious/sad/romantic numbers of Rafi-sahab. Or when the otherwise vivacious Asha-ji renders "Meri baat rahi mere man me" and "Zindagi ke rang kayi re". Of course, Talat-sahab and Mukesh-ji are identified with heart-wrenching songs. While I am listening to and enjoying such a song, someone might remark, "But it is so sad"! That thought doesn't quite strike me. My concentration is upon the lyrics (which are more poetic & eloquent in sad songs), the melody and the rendition. Reluctantly, I am constrained to play "mast" songs when we have company. But then, that is quite unavoidable. They have reason enough to be sad with me in their midst! If you stop trying to make sense of it all, you'll be less confused. Reality is an illusion.
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extenok |
Aug 12 2004, 08:52 PM
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#23
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Dedicated Member Group: Members Posts: 1068 Joined: 25-October 03 Member No.: 33 |
Unni, I wouldn't call your discoveries frivolous. Just that your cited reasons weren't applicable on the select few participants of the discussion. I assume you weren't here when I had touched upon the subject of sad songs initially. You can read my thoughts and others posts on the subject albeit brief, but in some ways they do add to the discussion, without actually making the situation any more clear.
I have also hinted about sad songs getting more attention and having a certain higher quality when compared to other tracks in the same movie. Maybe its just my ears playing tricks on me. You could probably, being more observant, expose some interesting aspect to this whole discussion. In the end, you hit the nail right on the head, melody is the key! And I guess, you've more or less proved my point by stating in the end, "My concentration is upon the lyrics (which are more poetic & eloquent in sad songs), the melody and the rendition". Surprising, I also just love Lata's "Aap Ki Nazron Ne Samjha", rendered in Raag Darbari, amazing! Sad Songs ... ? ... And Our Infatuation With Them http://www.hamaraforums.com/index.php?showtopic=310 zindagi ne kar diya, jab bhi udaas aa gaye ghabra ke hum, manzil ke paas sar jhukaaya, sar jhuka kar ro diye |
cinemaniac2 |
Aug 12 2004, 11:09 PM
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#24
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Dedicated Member Group: Away Posts: 2796 Joined: 12-November 03 Member No.: 107 |
hey i love this.
u guys are going deep in this lyrics. ok. here is my poser song - sab kuch loota ke hosh mein -ek saal 1)"khud hi laga ke aag TAMASHA HI BAN GAYE"=Became a spectacle 2)"khud hi laga ke aag TAMASHAHI BAN GAYE"=Became a Spectator cinemaniac2 |
Talaikya |
Aug 13 2004, 09:05 AM
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#25
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Dedicated Member Group: Members Posts: 7498 Joined: 14-April 04 Member No.: 402 |
.... Methinks, I am going to have to invest in some good head phones pretty soon!! I think, listening to the song numerous times with my concentration darting away every few seconds... it's the latter - 2)"khud hi laga ke aag TAMASHAHI BAN GAYE"=Became a Spectator. The lyrics seem to follow that pattern, what say you all? T You must be the change you want to see in the world - Mahatma Gandhi |
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extenok |
Aug 13 2004, 10:07 AM
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#26
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Dedicated Member Group: Members Posts: 1068 Joined: 25-October 03 Member No.: 33 |
Easy CM. Its the second option. zindagi ne kar diya, jab bhi udaas aa gaye ghabra ke hum, manzil ke paas sar jhukaaya, sar jhuka kar ro diye |
anurag |
Aug 13 2004, 11:59 AM
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#27
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Dedicated Member Group: Members Posts: 1618 Joined: 18-June 04 From: Xanadu, K-Pax Planet Member No.: 550 |
I'd have to wholeheartedly agree with what Unni says in this post about the sad songs. But then why is it that sad songs are more melodic, hummable, lyrically strong and often rendered more beautifully? Could it be that the composers and the lyricist have to give more thought and care to designing a song that is supposed to evoke feelings of pain in order to make the listener identify with the characters going through emotional sufferings? In contrast, I suppose happiness is a state easily identifiable, since we, as human beings are always striving to maximize happiness in our life and shunning the possibility of sadness, if not removing it. Pablo Picasso once said "Everything exist in limited quantity, especially happinness". We are racing to catch up with the sun of happiness, though not quite achieving it but then I digress. Well, that is one point. Another is that we, as Indians are not the expressive kind. We have always been taught implicitly to not to show overt happiness in any circumstances and this gets reflected in our choice of music. Alhough we have not been taught to show sadness either, yet somehow it has been acceptable to identify with a subdued emotion that has expressions more internal and sober in nature. This is not to say that happy songs are bad in general - I suppose a sincere admission of state of happiness expressed via melodic music, decent lyrics and good singing is as charming as a beautiful sad song is. Take for example, the young lover of Yaadon ki barat who sings "Chura Liya Hai Tumne.." to express her euphoria over her newly found love and contrast it with the "Mohabaat Hai Mirchi" from a movie, ironically named same as the aforementioned song of Asha. Granted that the comparison is not fair - one of them is outright a bad song (no moolah for guessing which one ), the point is a happy song can be as good as a sad one yet I suppose it's the sad ones that get carved out more painstakingly. anurag Socrates said, "The unexamined life is not worth living". I fear if I examined it, then according to Heisenberg uncertainty principle it would somehow change. After all, we are just particles.
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extenok |
Aug 14 2004, 01:55 PM
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#28
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Dedicated Member Group: Members Posts: 1068 Joined: 25-October 03 Member No.: 33 |
I think I've already mentioned why "sad songs are more melodic, hummable, lyrically strong and often rendered beautifully". You would know that I wholeheartedly agree with your view/opinion. But, since you might not have read that part, here goes again. I am of the opinion that sad songs got more attention and "more thought & care" because their job was simply difficult. To make the viewer feel the pain and agony of defeat or heartbreak wasn't an easy job. Comparatively, yes, happiness is an easily identifiable state for the human heart & mind. A very brilliant observation here Anu, two thumbs up.
I am sure, there will be others who do not agree with our opinion. For now, till I don't see a better explanation to "Why?", I'll stick with this one. zindagi ne kar diya, jab bhi udaas aa gaye ghabra ke hum, manzil ke paas sar jhukaaya, sar jhuka kar ro diye |
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unni |
Aug 14 2004, 06:44 PM
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#29
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Dedicated Member Group: Away Posts: 8769 Joined: 20-March 04 From: Vaanar Nivas, Tribandar Marg, Bandarabad, MONKEYSTAN. Member No.: 356 |
While on the subject, I feel that in terms of happy/romantic songs, the lyricists are most inspired when they describe the beauty of the beloved or the poet's feelings towards the subject . Some random examples that come to mind are:
"Yeh hawa yeh raat yeh chaandni" (Talat) "Husn waaley tera jawaab nahin" (Rafi) "Roop tumhara ankhon se pee loon" (Manna Dey) "Chaudhvin ka chaand ho" (Rafi) "Tum jo hamaarey meet na hotay" (Mukesh) "Chookar merey man ko, kiya toonay kya ishaara" (Kishore) Such songs are more "descriptive" than happy in their nature, but very expressive and poetic in content. If you stop trying to make sense of it all, you'll be less confused. Reality is an illusion.
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Priya |
Aug 15 2004, 12:24 AM
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#30
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Dedicated Member Group: Away Posts: 14700 Joined: 24-October 03 From: Kerala, India Member No.: 25 |
Wow yeh to poora thread ban gaya happy/sad songs par!!!!
I think I agree with all of U. Sad songs stand out most often for the melody. Also have to agree with Anurag about the feelings of the youth and having no outlet to these. Also I think a lot more songs are made on sad situations than happy ones--I mean barring the romantic songs can we really say there are many happy songs? Maybe shaadi songs again associated with romance--so if one has not fallen in love I guess these can only produce a yearning But there are so many kinds of sad songs--the most common failure in love kind, songs on death and separation, the injustice of fate, the cruelty of life, songs of helplessness, poverty, mother's songs, songs of loneliness, on being jobless, homeless, away from home.... Matlab har situation ke liye kai gaane hai with which one can identify. Personally I also think sometimes happiness is so heady it just carries one away and one is very involved in the moment--maybe one does not even listen to music at such a time!!! Because if I think deeply there are many happy songs which are as easily identifiable with--for eg sach hue sapne tere, jhoom le o man mere has that quality of walking on air, the fulfilment of young dreams, the first tatse of love--who cannot be carried away by that (of course all teh rest of u are men so pata nahi if U will feel the same)--then there is kyun mujhe itni khushi de di ki ghabarata hai dil--that feeling of bursting happiness tinged with fear that this is effervescent. (have never seen this picturised so can only say what the singing conjures up in my mind) Maybe human beings being what they are alos do not hold happiness that long in their hearts--our happy moments are less remembered wheras we tend to brood over and keep going back to our losses or failures. Sad songs can always strike a chord that way because we have all lost or missed something at some point of time. We have mentioned melody and the tune--yes more often the sad songs have better tunes but lyrics too are a big factor--so often sad poignant songs have such beautiful poetry whearas the happy/comic/fun songs do not have much poetry and often have gibberish in them!! The beautiful romantic songs can take one to high ecstacy depending on the tune or make one sigh or feel a twinge at these lovely things that we only hear of but never experience. Then as U all say individual temperament also plays a role. With me as Unni mentioned while listening to sad songs I do not always necessarily feel sad. The old songs especially could elevate grief with the poetry, music and soulful singing to an aesthetic level. As usual when making a long post I have written a whole lot of mixed stuff and have not made a point! BTW Unni in all this maine apne matlab ki ek cheez dhoond li in Ur post---mnetion of an Asha song Zindagi ke rang kayi re--yeh kaunsa gana hai? UL it pleaseeeeeeeeeeeee P |
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