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Homo Futuris

 
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anurag
post Feb 19 2006, 04:37 AM
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Bibhas, MJ, so did the evolution take place or not? I could n't understand much of what Bibhas had posted. Though, his own explanations are as lucid as they can be. Bhabhi kaa haath on V-day and the Hard drive metaphors were illuminating. biggrin.gif

Need some Engineering like explanation.

Socrates said, "The unexamined life is not worth living". I fear if I examined it, then according to Heisenberg uncertainty principle it would somehow change. After all, we are just particles.
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bibhas
post Feb 19 2006, 05:46 AM
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QUOTE(anurag @ Feb 18 2006, 06:07 PM) *

Bibhas, MJ, so did the evolution take place or not? I could n't understand much of what Bibhas had posted. Though, his own explanations are as lucid as they can be. Bhabhi kaa haath on V-day and the Hard drive metaphors were illuminating. biggrin.gif

Need some Engineering like explanation.

Anurag,
Nice to see you here. Hope you had a good time at home. While I am sure MJ would say the jury is still out, I firmly believe in Evolution. Evolution happened and is still happening and will continue to do so. That lamba chauda excerpt was an attempt to list much of the fossil evidence that tracks the evolution from pre-apes to Homo sapiens. If you discard all of the technical stuff and simply focus on the characteristics that arise anew in the newly evolved species and the ones that are still in common with the ancestor, you will see the gradual process of one species evolving into another. Hope that helps. If there are particular sections you would like me to elaborate on, please ask.
Bibhas

A science that does not deliver us to the portals of metaphysics is a failed science and a religion that does not embrace physics is not grounded in reality.
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Mandrake
post Feb 19 2006, 02:29 PM
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Bibhas, I haven't gone through the lamba chauda post yet (will do so a li'l later), but just a curious question:

can you help me walk through a generalized time frame from ape to man changeover (or wherever to man)?

I am not a doubter of people's abilities and knowledge, and I wouldn't ever argue with a professional, as you are in your field.
But I wish to satisfy my curiosities, and answer my doubts. From here on, pls pls don't take my doubts and disbeliefs personally. I am in no way questioning your ability. I am only trying to widen the horizons of my 'flawed' understanding of certain processes...

Self - belief is the most potent force.
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shivani
post Feb 19 2006, 05:36 PM
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QUOTE
Following text is a collection of edited quoted material from my evolution resources. I've tried to simplify the text and remove technical jaron to the extent possible.

Bibhas
Thanks a lot.
I understand this is a text compiled by you from different sources? Can you please post the links to those if they are available online. ( I can search, but there is so much out there and makes it difficult to select the material).

QUOTE
I'd like to see their scientific rationale behind that conclusion! Genetic "memory" is nothing but DNA, which is present in every single cell of your body, all over the body


That was my understanding as well.. so the doubt. I am sorry, would not be available to provide more information on it as yet. As I said all the sites are french.

QUOTE


QUOTE

Why does the brain have no sensation like other parts of the body?


Au Contraire, Brain has all the sensation and there would be no sense of sensation without the brain! When Bhabhiji holds your hand on valentine's day, how do you know that ? The sensory nerve terminals on your palm are sending electrical impulses to your brain which interprets them, decodes them and then tells you via return impulses through the motor nerve that controls your hand muscles to return the gesture by pressing on her hand gently. If your brain did not exist, then there would be nothing but a few microamperes running through your body!


mmm.. Brain does control all the nervous system, but what I remember is Brain tissue itself does not feel pain as such. Is it true or am I illusioned by Dr. Lector smile3.gif


MJ & Bibhas

Both of you agree that homo sapiens are still evolving. What makes you say so? and in which manner /direction ?
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Mandrake
post Feb 19 2006, 06:05 PM
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Sorry to stick to my guns till proved wrong.
But my acceptance of evolution is only in the mental aspect. Call it evolution or learning, but to me, there is still a lot of growth/evolution left in that department. What has never changed and will never change(purely in my opinion) is the physical configuration.

And I am sorry Bibhas, these are just opinions which don't withstand serious dissection - at least not at this stage. (I guess I'll need to go back and re-look at all the thoughts that brought me to these conclusions a long time ago.

Self - belief is the most potent force.
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shivani
post Feb 19 2006, 06:12 PM
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QUOTE
But my acceptance of evolution is only in the mental aspect. Call it evolution or learning, but to me, there is still a lot of growth/evolution left in that department. What has never changed and will never change(purely in my opinion) is the physical configuration.

hmmmm
You think human beings are mentally evolving? Have we made any significant progress in past 1000 years?
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Mandrake
post Feb 19 2006, 06:20 PM
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Yes, backwards sad1.gif

I treat Mahabharat as a true fact. The kind of things that many of them were capable of doing, using their mental powers, seem today just so much fantasy, coz we've forgotten the methods of attaining such powers.

(Am I going along the wrong path in this thread?)

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shivani
post Feb 19 2006, 06:38 PM
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ummm In your opinion the beings during Mahabharata period were more evolved... and also that we are moving backwards.

So backwards was better or ...?

We seem to be moving in circles smile3.gif
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bibhas
post Feb 20 2006, 01:12 AM
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QUOTE(Mandrake @ Feb 19 2006, 03:59 AM) *

I am not a doubter of people's abilities and knowledge, and I wouldn't ever argue with a professional, as you are in your field.
But I wish to satisfy my curiosities, and answer my doubts. From here on, pls pls don't take my doubts and disbeliefs personally. I am in no way questioning your ability. I am only trying to widen the horizons of my 'flawed' understanding of certain processes...

Mandrake,
I did not take it personally at all, I was just a little surprised because you had said last year that you were a total believer in the theory of evolution. I am sorry if I came across as aggressive, this is all thanks due to our great american president who is trying to muck with the school curriculum. I am not an evolutionary biologist but this subject is close to my heart. So my ability is not an issue here at all and you are not questioning it, if it exists laugh.gif

QUOTE
But my acceptance of evolution is only in the mental aspect. Call it evolution or learning, but to me, there is still a lot of growth/evolution left in that department. What has never changed and will never change(purely in my opinion) is the physical configuration.

MJ, kuch samjha nahin yaar. Will you elaborate on what you mean by this ?

QUOTE
And I am sorry Bibhas, these are just opinions which don't withstand serious dissection - at least not at this stage. (I guess I'll need to go back and re-look at all the thoughts that brought me to these conclusions a long time ago).

Dissection nahiin kiya to phir kya mazaa MJ? Khair, whenever you say it.

QUOTE
I treat Mahabharat as a true fact. The kind of things that many of them were capable of doing, using their mental powers, seem today just so much fantasy, coz we've forgotten the methods of attaining such powers.

(Am I going along the wrong path in this thread?)

MJ, you've always been very staunch on this and I am very curious about the epics and the fact vs fiction aspect. And I am at that evidence gathering stage in this regard. So I would love for us to be able to discuss this at length and tap into that vast resource that you are. And if you think this isn't the thread, then there is that dormant thread in chit-o-chat that you had opened first for querying Hits. What sayest thou?

A science that does not deliver us to the portals of metaphysics is a failed science and a religion that does not embrace physics is not grounded in reality.
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bibhas
post Feb 20 2006, 01:42 AM
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QUOTE(Mandrake @ Feb 19 2006, 03:59 AM) *

Bibhas, I haven't gone through the lamba chauda post yet (will do so a li'l later), but just a curious question:

can you help me walk through a generalized time frame from ape to man changeover (or wherever to man)?


Humans belong to the group of mammals known as Primates (which includes lemurs, monkeys, apes and humans). The evolution of Primates started about 55 million years ago. Based on the fossil records of the various species of Proconsul (I had referred to this in that lamba-chauda post), the split between the common ancestors of monkeys and apes happened about 20 million years ago. Based on DNA analysis of apes, humans and fossil DNA, the common ancestor of apes and humans is thought to have existed about 5-8 million years ago. At some point towards the later end of this period, the split between apes and humans occurred. I hope you've had the chance to read that long post of mine by now and if you did, you'll appreciate the fact that distinctively human traits did not appear all at once but did so as a gradual process and so it becomes important to define what is considered to be the begining of appearance of human traits. Walking upright habitually and reduced canine teeth size are considered to be the earliest hallmark features that signalled the start of human evolution. And so over the last 4 and 1/2 million years or so, we went from being Australopiths (who were different from apes in pretty much only those two major traits) to being our current species, Homo sapiens.

I hope I answered your question MJ. If not, feel free to ask.

Edit: Added on Feb 20, 2006, 12.55 pm EST
Mandrake- here is a picture that complements the timelines of human evolution. This composite was created by none other than John Gurche, the famous paleo-artist that also brought "Jurassic Park" to life!
Attached Image

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bibhas
post Feb 20 2006, 02:22 AM
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QUOTE(shivani @ Feb 19 2006, 07:06 AM) *

Bibhas
Thanks a lot.
I understand this is a text compiled by you from different sources? Can you please post the links to those if they are available online. ( I can search, but there is so much out there and makes it difficult to select the material).

Shivani, you're very welcome. Couple of years ago, I was at the annual meeting of the Society of Neuroscience and participated in a panel discussion on the evolution of the brain. There were some folks from a Natural History museum somewhere here in the U.S. and they distributed some easy to read material (about the same level as Hawking's Brief History of Time would be to a non-physicist). A while ago, a friend of mine wanted some ape-to-human evolution material and I put together some stuff based on my general understanding of the process but I had used a lot of the text from these museum guys. While responding to MJ's post, I took the easy route and pasted the email I had sent to my friend. Give me some time to lookup their whereabouts and maybe they have a website with the information. Meanwhile, do me a favor and tell me if you thought my post was comprehensible. If it was, then it'll be worth your while reading the material I refer to, otherwise it'll be too technical and I'd much rather try and find a different source for you in that case.

QUOTE

mmm.. Brain does control all the nervous system, but what I remember is Brain tissue itself does not feel pain as such. Is it true or am I illusioned by Dr. Lector smile3.gif

True Shivani, brain doesn't feel most of the senses directly like the skin does. But that doesn't mean it doesn't feel pain, after all people do get headaches, right? It is the brain that's feeling that pain!

QUOTE
MJ & Bibhas

Both of you agree that homo sapiens are still evolving. What makes you say so? and in which manner /direction ?

I'll take a route different from MJ's because that in itself is an entire topic that merits a separate discussion. The reason I say we are still evolving is because we are constantly undergoing genetic changes through generations. True we haven't seen any significant changes in our physical traits in the last 25000 years but the fact is 25000 is a very small number in evolutionary timescales (refer to the post directly above this). When there is no major selection pressure resulting from major environmental change, then a species is said to have successfully adapted to the environment and lives successfully until the next period of change. Think of Dinosaurs, they had adapted successfully and ruled the planet until the environment changed drastically. Same is true of Proconsul, the ancestor of humans and apes. It thrived well for several million years before things got uncomfortable. So things will change for us too, it's not even been a million years since we became our current selves. However, the biggest evolutionary change has been in the brain and we have become very adept at using it to control our environment and food supply. Nobody has to fend for himself or herself all alone, we live in societies that take care of each other, so we don't find the need to grow a long neck or nimble feet to reach food on the highest branch of the tallest tree.
This is not within the scope of evolution but would you agree that we have grown intellectually over the past few hundred years alone? If that trend continues consistently for a lot longer, it will qualify to contest for a berth in the book of evolution.

Shivani, I also urge to see my posts-one and two-on evolution in your Determinism thread where I have explained why I think we are still evolving.

As for the knowledge that our ancestors mentioned in the epics possessed, if we assume it to be factual, the reasons for its loss are probably more social and less biological.

A science that does not deliver us to the portals of metaphysics is a failed science and a religion that does not embrace physics is not grounded in reality.
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bibhas
post Feb 20 2006, 02:52 AM
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Folks, I would like to know the following:
1. What does everyone feel about evolution being directed? Do you agree or disagree with that? Especially Shivani, you haven't posted your reaction to my conch-shell analogy.
2. MJ, what is your reaction to the brain's 10-90 use-disuse concept after my response?
3. What do you guys think of the brain's ability to sense?
4. Finally, do you agree that evolution is a currently ongoing process?

A science that does not deliver us to the portals of metaphysics is a failed science and a religion that does not embrace physics is not grounded in reality.
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dimps
post Feb 20 2006, 12:47 PM
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unsure.gif

A discussion which I read elsewhere, though not directly connected to this topic, but dealing on evolution

DASAVATARAM or 10 avatar of Vishnu is strikingly similar to Darwin's evolution theory also which sounds quite interesting...

Starting with the Avatars as I know ... .

MATSYA - FISH
KOORMA - TORTOISE
VARAGHA - PIG
SIMHA - LION
VAMANA - DWARF
PARASURAM
RAM
BALARAM
KRISHNA
KALKI / BUDHA

Is there a link between the mythology and the scienctific theory ?

check out this link for starters: http://www.becominghuman.org/

You however need a flash player to view the amazing documentary on human evolution.


Attached File(s)
Attached File  Becoming_Human_Paleoanthropology__Evolution_and_Human_Origins.htm ( 13.58 k ) Number of hits: 6 by members

There's no use in weeping,
Though we are condemned to part:
There's such a thing as keeping
A remembrance in one's heart:
...........by Charlotte Bronte


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dimps
post Feb 20 2006, 12:54 PM
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blink.gif

I tried to post the link, but somehow it was coming thro.

Pls try the site I have mentioned and do comment



There's no use in weeping,
Though we are condemned to part:
There's such a thing as keeping
A remembrance in one's heart:
...........by Charlotte Bronte


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Mandrake
post Feb 20 2006, 12:57 PM
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Interesting observation Dimps.
A few points quickly:
1) Your link is dead
2) Balaram and Krishna were both avatars of Vishnu? Split personality? (They co-existed)
3) After using force to attain peace in almost every successive avatar, I wonder why Vishnu came as Buddha. No chance to show his heroics in that role wink2.gif
4) Kalki - apparently yet to happen, reverts to the sword-wielding, horse-riding persona...

Is Buddha an aberration? Or was is some other god that came as Buddha?

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