Talat Rerecorded By Another Singer, The original film version rerecorded by Rafi & MK Options

[Binod]

Hi:

I know that the 1957 Bhabhi songs "Chal Ud Ja Re Panchhi" originally recorded in Talat's voice was rerecorded in Rafi's voice. Also the film version of 1968 Aadmi song "Kaisi Haseen Aaj" saw his voice being ultimately replaced by that of Mahendra Kapoor at the insistence of Manoj Kumar.

At a recent interview [SEE: http://www.screenindia.com/fullstory.php?content_id=11571 --"MUSIC DIRECTOR - That Royal Touch"] Naushad reveals that in the film version of the 1967 Palki song "Kal Raat Zindagi Se" a rerecording of Talat's song had to be done again at the insistence of Rajendra Kumar. Does anyone have this Talat version and will be kind enough to u/l it? Otherwise we may need to request Talat's son, Khalid Mahmood.

Also does anyone know of more of such replaced versions that did not see the light of the day?

Thanks.

Binod.

[Akhtar]

I am sure this was also the case of "Tujhey Kya Sunawon Aye Dilruba'' (Aakhri Dao)

[Binod]

I am sure this was also the case of "Tujhey Kya Sunawon Aye Dilruba'' (Aakhri Dao)

Thanks for the info Akhtar Bhai. I have not read anywhere about this. Could you please point to me the source, if possible? Come to think of it, I can imagine that the tune and style of singing of this song would be very suitable for Talat too. I believe it would fit him like a pair of gloves. This is not to say that Rafi did not sing it up to our expectations. Does anyone in this Forum have this version too?

Binod.

[SKG]

I am sure this was also the case of "Tujhey Kya Sunawon Aye Dilruba'' (Aakhri Dao)

Thanks for the info Aktar Bhai. I have not read anywhere about this. Could you please point to me the source, if possible? Come to think of it, I can imagine that the tune and style of singing of this song would be very suitable for Talat too. I believe it would fit him like a pair of gloves. This is not to say that Rafi did not sing it up to our expectations. Does anyone in this Forum have this version too?

Binod.

No wonder, the tune is a lift-off from Sajjad Hussein's "Yeh Hawa Yeh Raat Yeh Chandni" Sangdil sung by Talat.

[Binod]

I am sure this was also the case of "Tujhey Kya Sunawon Aye Dilruba'' (Aakhri Dao)

Thanks for the info Aktar Bhai. I have not read anywhere about this. Could you please point to me the source, if possible? Come to think of it, I can imagine that the tune and style of singing of this song would be very suitable for Talat too. I believe it would fit him like a pair of gloves. This is not to say that Rafi did not sing it up to our expectations. Does anyone in this Forum have this version too?

Binod.

No wonder, the tune is a lift-off from Sajjad Hussein's "Yeh Hawa Yeh Raat Yeh Chandni" Sangdil sung by Talat.

Thanks for the info. I knew that Sajjad Hussein had once accused Madan Mohan of stealing his tune in front of a large gathering of artists but I did not have info about the details. Here are the details gleaned from the RMIM archives of an article about Sajjad Hussain [THE UNSUNG GENIUS] written by Radha Rajadhyaksha.

http://www.geocities.com/~sm0e/R-sajjad.txt .

However, here we seem to be veering off the topic which is not about MM & SH but is about Talat and his substitutes including Rafi & MK. Did Mukesh, Manna De,& Hemant also make any inroads into Talat musical fiefdom? [I suppose Kishore was so different that I purposely did not consider him as a Talat substitute or am I dead wrong here?]

Response eagerly awaited. Thanks.

Binod.

[shriram]

Dear Binod,

I do not quite know how you mean "inroads into Talat musical fiefdom". Do you mean Talat-style of songs or sonsgs that Talat had to sing but finally other singers replaced him.

If the former, there are plenty of strong reasons. If you see Talat's career graph, he hit like a meteor in Bombay in 1949 and by 1951, he was strongly established. He was the undisputed king of playback singing (on the male side) till 1955 when the top composers of the time like Anil Biswas, CR, Husnlal Bhagatram, Hansraj Behl etc used him extensively. Then, there is a sudden void because he made overseas trips giving concerts in the US, East Africa, Caribean etc in the 1956-57 phase. He was still no 1 but the gap between him and the others was much reduced. It was when Mukesh staged a strong comeback in 1958 with "Madhumati" that Talat's fortunes finally went decidedly downhill. It is also undeniable that his own vocals were no longer of the same calibre as yore. The popular music form was also much changed. Also most of his favorite composers had faded away by the late 50s. Only Salil Chowdhury used him well in the next few years.

His non film records continued to sell briskly though right through till the 70s.

It is also worth remembering that during Talat's peak years, there are many songs that were supposed to be sung by other singers that Talat finally rendered. For example, the songs of "Doraha" were initially to be recorded with Rafi but Anilda not comfortable with Rafi's renditions switched to Talat. So maybe in the end, things just tend to even themselves out !!

Regards,
Shriram

[Binod]

Dear Binod,

I do not quite know how you mean "inroads into Talat musical fiefdom". Do you mean Talat-style of songs or sonsgs that Talat had to sing but finally other singers replaced him.


Regards,
Shriram

Dear Shriram:

My expression "inroads into Talat's musical fiefdom" is to be taken to mean loosely both things, i.e. not mutually exclusive. We could have other singers replace him in his style of songs. I just wanted to know which were the songs and who were the new substitutes. I thank you for your indepth analyses and explanations of why and when this happened. Pretty much illuminating.

I am sure this happens to other number one stars too. Just as it happened to Rafi as he slowly got edged out by Kishore. There were also instances when Rafi held his own for example when Madan Mohan insisted that Rafi be used for Lalila Majnu or he would opt out if Kishore were used. In this duo case either a song was given to both such as in Pyar Ka Mausam and the proliferation of duets in the later stages or that there was only one singer recorded in the movie with no other version recordings available elsewhere. So there is no way to know how Kishore would have sounded in Laila Majnu and how would Rafi have sounded in flicks where Kishore sang in Rafi-style songs.

But in the case of Talat we have some version songs sung by him that do not appear in the films. So these recordings would enable us to give independent opinions/analyses and/or judge whether the public/MD's final choice/decision was really justifiable from artistic considerations or whether they were swayed by purely commercial and/or political considerations? Or were the choices not so obvious but were only indifferent, each providing a different flavor only irrespective of any being superior to the other.

My theory is that since Talat was already recorded , it proves that an artistic/professional decision to use him by the MD was vetoed by a non-music person such as the film star and/or the producers purely on the basis political expediency or commercial considerations. The decision to use Rafi in Lalila Majnu is just the opposite of the above decision character because Kishore's name had yet to be finalized. Then there is a third type of decision in which the MD thought of using an artist and later changed his mind. In this case the choice was not so obvious and the MD vacillitated as he had to consider both politics and art. An example of this would be Anil Biswas's "Do Raha". However, I feel that Biswas is one MD who consistently avoided Rafi. I have never heard him praise him. He not only prefered Talat to Rafi , any artist including Hemant, Kishore, Mukesh, and Manna De would be easily chosen over Rafi unless someone intervened.

But this is only theory. Access to some of the version songs would provide further clues to the validity of this theory. I solicit your opinions, theories, and analyses.

Thanks.

Binod.

[Shahrukh3000]

Hi:

I know that the 1957 Bhabhi songs "Chal Ud Ja Re Panchhi" originally recorded in Talat's voice was rerecorded in Rafi's voice. Also the film version of 1968 Aadmi song "Kaisi Haseen Aaj" saw his voice being ultimately replaced by that of Mahendra Kapoor at the insistence of Manoj Kumar.

At a recent interview [SEE: http://www.screenindia.com/fullstory.php?content_id=11571 --"MUSIC DIRECTOR - That Royal Touch"] Naushad reveals that in the film version of the 1967 Palki song "Kal Raat Zindagi Se" a rerecording of Talat's song had to be done again at the insistence of Rajendra Kumar. Does anyone have this Talat version and will be kind enough to u/l it? Otherwise we may need to request Talat's son, Khalid Mahmood.

Also does anyone know of more of such replaced versions that did not see the light of the day?

Thanks.

Binod.

[unni]

To add to Binod's mention of instances where the singer was "replaced":

Reportedly, the producer/s of "JAHAN ARA" wanted Rafi-sahab as the male singer, but it was Madan Mohan who insisted on using Talat-sahab --- and created for him a memorable string of tunes, virtually Talat-sahab's glorious swan-song!

To me it isn't quite clear what actually transpired in the instance of "ARADHANA". It was reported that when SDB was in charge of the music, two songs had already been recorded in the voice of Rafi-sahab. Subsequently, RDB took over when his father fell ill, and for the rest of the songs he used Kishore-da. But the two songs recorded in Rafi's voice were for the role of the son played by Rajesh Khanna, whereas the Kishore numbers were for Rajesh Khanna as the father character! So it is not clear to me whether SDB had intended for Rafi-sahab to sing for both characters.

Had Kishore Kumar sung the songs of "LAILA MAJNU", or Mohd. Rafi the other songs of "ARADHANA", I guess the tunes would have been re-cast in the respective singer's idiom and not the way we hear them. Music directors have been known to say that a tune is created with the singer in mind. I guess, one notable exception would perhaps be "Yeh Hawa Yeh Raat" and "Tujhe Kya Sunaoon", both could have been rendered by either Talat or Rafi!

The then prevailing popularity of a singer is the criterion considered by 'non-musical' entities who have a stake in the film, judging the saleability of the film in terms of the music, e.g. in the case of "BHABHI". The actor's popular image and identity with the voice, in the instance of "PALKI" (Rajendra Kumar/Mohd. Rafi) and "AADMI" (Manoj Kumar/Mahendra Kapoor). Criteria that influenced decisions in the post-ARADHANA phase, too.

[Binod]

To add to Binod's mention of instances where the singer was "replaced":

Reportedly, the producer/s of "JAHAN ARA" wanted Rafi-sahab as the male singer, but it was Madan Mohan who insisted on using Talat-sahab --- and created for him a memorable string of tunes, virtually Talat-sahab's glorious swan-song!

To me it isn't quite clear what actually transpired in the instance of "ARADHANA". It was reported that when SDB was in charge of the music, two songs had already been recorded in the voice of Rafi-sahab. Subsequently, RDB took over when his father fell ill, and for the rest of the songs he used Kishore-da. But the two songs recorded in Rafi's voice were for the role of the son played by Rajesh Khanna, whereas the Kishore numbers were for Rajesh Khanna as the father character! So it is not clear to me whether SDB had intended for Rafi-sahab to sing for both characters.

Had Kishore Kumar sung the songs of "LAILA MAJNU", or Mohd. Rafi the other songs of "ARADHANA", I guess the tunes would have been re-cast in the respective singer's idiom and not the way we hear them. Music directors have been known to say that a tune is created with the singer in mind. I guess, one notable exception would perhaps be "Yeh Hawa Yeh Raat" and "Tujhe Kya Sunaoon", both could have been rendered by either Talat or Rafi!

The then prevailing popularity of a singer is the criterion considered by 'non-musical' entities who have a stake in the film, judging the saleability of the film in terms of the music, e.g. in the case of "BHABHI". The actor's popular image and identity with the voice, in the instance of "PALKI" (Rajendra Kumar/Mohd. Rafi) and "AADMI" (Manoj Kumar/Mahendra Kapoor). Criteria that influenced decisions in the post-ARADHANA phase, too.

Interesting comments Unni. I did not know about JAHAN ARA.

Another twist to this story would be the role of, if any, discriminating and non discriminating actors. For example, I find Sunil Dutta has used almost alll male singers for his playback -- he does not seem to be so much obsessed by any stereotypical image. Or is he only being eclectical in his choice of singers -- not sticking to anyone but switching singers as the situation demanded. Or is it only the highly sought after actors such as Rajesh Khanna, Rajendra Kumar, Amitabh who made the choices? Again what made Amitabh bray in his own voice when Kishore was readily available? Was he set out to prove that his popularity had crested beyond the quality of songs in his movies?

Sorry, again for going off the topic. Folks, lets have more analyses and more Talat. Let us provide more examples of Talat replacing others and the stories that went with them. Let us also know whether Hemant (whose voice and singing had Godly traits according to Salil Chowdhury) ever replaced Talat or was replaced by him. In his case Salil must have been in a predicament since he was so much enchanted by Hemant but he was still using Talat when others had already switched ships. Which MDs besides Anil Biswas were diehard Talat promoters? Was there a special trait common in them as a group? There is some food for thought here. I would invite your erudite views here.

Thanks.

Binod.

[tracknest]

To add to Binod's mention of instances where the singer was "replaced":

Music directors have been known to say that a tune is created with the singer in mind. I guess, one notable exception would perhaps be "Yeh Hawa Yeh Raat" and "Tujhe Kya Sunaoon", both could have been rendered by either Talat or Rafi!

Interesting discussion. It may be true sometimes that MD's have certain singers in mind before composing a tune but that is/was generally not the case in the past.

I once asked Nausad Sahab why there were no Rafi songs in Saathi and he said that he belived the tunes were quite suited for Mukesh besides Rafi was very busy in other assignments. So did he make the compositions with Rafi in mind. He said Rafi had such a unique voice and quality that it was compatable with just about any composition. Rafi was very busy and it wasn't humanly possible for him to sing more than what he was doing. So would he have asked Rafi to sing songs of Saathi if he was available, the answer was yes.He further said Rafi had the passion of a workaholic. A perfectionist to the core, he would rehearse his songs a number of times till he achieved the desired level of perfection. This accounted for the quality of his songs that have become immortal.

He also said that whenever he could not decide which singer to approach for a song, he always fell back on Rafi and other MD's to followed the same thumb rule.

Rafi was distinct from all other singers due to the unique combination of his god gifted voice and amazing skills. Most singers were stereotyped for certain style of songs but Rafi's vocal repertoire was beyond any restrictions and this was the primary reason he is not linked to a certain class or type of songs, IMO there is no 'Rafi style' of songs. This is clearly evident in the 4 decades that he sang when the style of music had changed several times and Rafi consistently delivered till the end and his vocal elegance easily gelled with the changing trends of music.

The composers for the day were indeed thankful for a singer like Rafi. He could deliver whatever they asked for. Whether it was SD Burman’s, Yeh duniyan agar mil bhee jaye to kya hai in Pyasa or Dekhi zamane ki yaari bichde sabhi bari bari from Kagaz Ke Phool, where Rafi sang about love and loss. In Roshan’s Carvan guzar gaya ghubar dekhte rahey from Nai Umar ki Nai Fasal, Rafi brought out a lingering sense of loss and longing. Under the baton of N. Dutta, he conveyed the agony of a man whose dreams had been shattered in Main ne chaand aur sitaron ki tamanna ki thi from Chanderkanta. Nain lad jayi hein to manva maan kasak hoi be kari from the film Ganga Jamuna is still remembered for its exuberance.

Talat's style suited songs in 40's and 50's but with changing trends and with MD's looking for more versatility it meant Talat's golden period was limited to that time. The same could be said of Hemant Kumar.

There are many instances MD's have changed singers and mostly it has being due to demand of the producers or the actors. As far as Laila Majnu was concerned, Madan ji knew that through his music he had to communicate the passion, the pain of Laila and Majnu and that would require songs to be sung at a high range, lots of emotion and would require tremendous variety of vocal skills as there were romatic songs, emotionally charged songs, qawalis and a cry of a broken heart in Yeh Diwane Ki Zid hein, a song that had to be sung at different vocal range and pitches . Thus to meet all these various requirements he opted Rafi.

Manoj Kumar decided to ask for MK to sing Kitni Hassen Raat as he thought Rafi's voice gave an added advantge and strength to the character of Dilip Kumar and although the lines for Manoj were more strong, that was not spelling out on the screen in Talat's voice. IMO Manoj Kumar had a case. With all due respects,Talat's vocals do not gel with that composition and this becomes more apparent after you hear Rafi sing the song.Talat who himself has admitted that he could never comprehend how Rafi could sung with such a high degree of versatility. Rafi was however unhappy when it was told to him about Talat being repaced by MK.

Any skillfull singer can sing any song, however MD's in the past specially never viewed it from this perspective. The issue was not to get a song sung but to get the song sung that has the maximum possible impact not only on the song but also on the story of the movie.Hence we had Rafi singing Man Mora Bawra and Ajab hai Dastan for Kishore. Besides Kishore Kumar, Rafi sang for Talat Mahmood in Lala Rukh number Hai kali kali ke lab par teray husan ka fasana. Neither Talat nor Kishore objected to Rafi's voice being used for them— such was the virtuosity of Rafi. This speaks volumes for their on-mike camaraderie.

One of the most important reasons for the falling levels of music and singing is that MD's today simply are looking for a singer to sing a song, they do not care about the impact the song needs to generate and hence these songs come and go unlike several songs of the past that we can never forget and they continue to remain fresh even after so many years.

For listeners like us, it is difficult to analyase a song in terms of its impact, only professional musicians and singers can gauge that aspect. Hence the world of singing is very different for the common listener than most professional MD's and other knownedgeable people who understand the dynamics of music & singing. Our comments and views are motivated by our prefernces not theirs (in most cases).

Thanks
T

[SKG]

Manoj Kumar decided to ask for MK to sing Kitni Hassen Raat as he thought Rafi's voice gave an added advantge and strength to the character of Dilip Kumar and although the lines for Manoj were more strong, that was not spelling out on the screen in Talat's voice. IMO Manoj Kumar had a case. With all due respects,Talat's vocals do not gel with that composition and this becomes more apparent after you hear Rafi sing the song.Talat who himself has admitted that he could never comprehend how Rafi could sung with such a high degree of versatility. Rafi was however unhappy when it was told to him about Talat being repaced by MK.

In my opinion Talat's version sounded much much better than Mahendra Kapoor's. It is my personal choice and not binding on others, but Talat was a lot better than Mahendra Kapoor (although I guess the best was indeed Rafi).

By the way, does anyone have the Talat version of this song from Aadmi? If you have can you kindly upload it here please?

[AzgarKhan]

This is the Part - 2 of the song - A slightly different version sung by Talat Mehmood again.

Coutesy: HF

[princeali]

To me it isn't quite clear what actually transpired in the instance of "ARADHANA". It was reported that when SDB was in charge of the music, two songs had already been recorded in the voice of Rafi-sahab. Subsequently, RDB took over when his father fell ill, and for the rest of the songs he used Kishore-da. But the two songs recorded in Rafi's voice were for the role of the son played by Rajesh Khanna, whereas the Kishore numbers were for Rajesh Khanna as the father character! So it is not clear to me whether SDB had intended for Rafi-sahab to sing for both characters.

Based on what I have come across, I think for Aradhna SDB had made it clear that Rafi would sing all the songs. In this case you had the most popular male voice of Rafi saab who sang for everyone, on a struggling not yet famous Rajesh Khanna which made sense at the time. When SDB fell ill, the team of Shakti Samantha (producer), RDB and the rest still wanted Rafi for all the songs but he was out of the country at the time so they opted for Kishore to sing the other songs. When SDB recovered, he didn't mind RDB's choice because he was never really against Kishore throughout his career and had used him in his Dev Anand films. It is interesting to note that SDB was still Rafi oriented all the way in later releases like Ishq Par Zor Nahin and Talaash, two big musicals that came after Aradhna. It is only in the seventies after recording "Mera Man Tera Pyaasa.." in Gambler that he made the switch in this film itself by giving all the other songs to Kishore. From then on it was Kishore who dominated his recording room with Rafi coming in for choice songs just as he did for RDB starting from around 1973. RD helped quite a bit in the orchestrations of all the songs of Aradhna.

Same case with Kati Patang, according to Shakti Samantha, Mukesh came in for "Jis Gali Mein Tera..." because Kishore was out of the country.

[maheshks]

To add to Binod's mention of instances where the singer was "replaced":

Music directors have been known to say that a tune is created with the singer in mind. I guess, one notable exception would perhaps be "Yeh Hawa Yeh Raat" and "Tujhe Kya Sunaoon", both could have been rendered by either Talat or Rafi!

Interesting discussion. It may be true sometimes that MD's have certain singers in mind before composing a tune but that is/was generally not the case in the past.

I once asked Nausad Sahab why there were no Rafi songs in Saathi and he said that he belived the tunes were quite suited for Mukesh besides Rafi was very busy in other assignments. So did he make the compositions with Rafi in mind. He said Rafi had such a unique voice and quality that it was compatable with just about any composition. Rafi was very busy and it wasn't humanly possible for him to sing more than what he was doing. So would he have asked Rafi to sing songs of Saathi if he was available, the answer was yes.He further said Rafi had the passion of a workaholic. A perfectionist to the core, he would rehearse his songs a number of times till he achieved the desired level of perfection. This accounted for the quality of his songs that have become immortal.

He also said that whenever he could not decide which singer to approach for a song, he always fell back on Rafi and other MD's to followed the same thumb rule.

Rafi was distinct from all other singers due to the unique combination of his god gifted voice and amazing skills. Most singers were stereotyped for certain style of songs but Rafi's vocal repertoire was beyond any restrictions and this was the primary reason he is not linked to a certain class or type of songs, IMO there is no 'Rafi style' of songs. This is clearly evident in the 4 decades that he sang when the style of music had changed several times and Rafi consistently delivered till the end and his vocal elegance easily gelled with the changing trends of music.

The composers for the day were indeed thankful for a singer like Rafi. He could deliver whatever they asked for. Whether it was SD Burman’s, Yeh duniyan agar mil bhee jaye to kya hai in Pyasa or Dekhi zamane ki yaari bichde sabhi bari bari from Kagaz Ke Phool, where Rafi sang about love and loss. In Roshan’s Carvan guzar gaya ghubar dekhte rahey from Nai Umar ki Nai Fasal, Rafi brought out a lingering sense of loss and longing. Under the baton of N. Dutta, he conveyed the agony of a man whose dreams had been shattered in Main ne chaand aur sitaron ki tamanna ki thi from Chanderkanta. Nain lad jayi hein to manva maan kasak hoi be kari from the film Ganga Jamuna is still remembered for its exuberance.

Talat's style suited songs in 40's and 50's but with changing trends and with MD's looking for more versatility it meant Talat's golden period was limited to that time. The same could be said of Hemant Kumar.

There are many instances MD's have changed singers and mostly it has being due to demand of the producers or the actors. As far as Laila Majnu was concerned, Madan ji knew that through his music he had to communicate the passion, the pain of Laila and Majnu and that would require songs to be sung at a high range, lots of emotion and would require tremendous variety of vocal skills as there were romatic songs, emotionally charged songs, qawalis and a cry of a broken heart in Yeh Diwane Ki Zid hein, a song that had to be sung at different vocal range and pitches . Thus to meet all these various requirements he opted Rafi.

Manoj Kumar decided to ask for MK to sing Kitni Hassen Raat as he thought Rafi's voice gave an added advantge and strength to the character of Dilip Kumar and although the lines for Manoj were more strong, that was not spelling out on the screen in Talat's voice. IMO Manoj Kumar had a case. With all due respects,Talat's vocals do not gel with that composition and this becomes more apparent after you hear Rafi sing the song.Talat who himself has admitted that he could never comprehend how Rafi could sung with such a high degree of versatility. Rafi was however unhappy when it was told to him about Talat being repaced by MK.

Any skillfull singer can sing any song, however MD's in the past specially never viewed it from this perspective. The issue was not to get a song sung but to get the song sung that has the maximum possible impact not only on the song but also on the story of the movie.Hence we had Rafi singing Man Mora Bawra and Ajab hai Dastan for Kishore. Besides Kishore Kumar, Rafi sang for Talat Mahmood in Lala Rukh number Hai kali kali ke lab par teray husan ka fasana. Neither Talat nor Kishore objected to Rafi's voice being used for them— such was the virtuosity of Rafi. This speaks volumes for their on-mike camaraderie.

One of the most important reasons for the falling levels of music and singing is that MD's today simply are looking for a singer to sing a song, they do not care about the impact the song needs to generate and hence these songs come and go unlike several songs of the past that we can never forget and they continue to remain fresh even after so many years.

For listeners like us, it is difficult to analyase a song in terms of its impact, only professional musicians and singers can gauge that aspect. Hence the world of singing is very different for the common listener than most professional MD's and other knownedgeable people who understand the dynamics of music & singing. Our comments and views are motivated by our prefernces not theirs (in most cases).

Thanks
T

Trackji good observations. The song "Hai kali kali ke lab par" was, however, not picturised on Talat Mehmood
and hence one error.